Designer Dogs

[Cricket]

I wish that everyone who breeds any type of dog, purebred, mutts, or designer would volunteer at a dog shelter and realize how many dogs are out there looking for homes, that never find one. It is actually very sad. The same could actually be said for breeding minis except that there are no so called "shelters" where all the unwanted and unloved minis end up. Unfortunately people all have really "good" reasons for breeding dogs, cats or horses, and never seem to think that they are adding to the problem. I know this discussion has come up before and doesn't really get anywhere but it is the way that I see it.

 

[Minimor]

Well, I'll tell you this--I'll give more money for a cross bred dog than I will most purebreds. We've almost always had mutts--if not mixed breeds then "mutt-bred" purebreds....purebred but not registered--technically mutts, because who can say for sure what the breeding behind them is? And they've been the best dogs--no health problems, no issues with poor temperament...no high price tag, no questionnaire to complete before I'm allowed to buy--just a dog that I like. And no, I probably won't go to a shelter for such a dog, unless they happen to have a puppy--because I prefer to get puppies that can grow up in my home and learn to live within the rules from the start. I could be lucky and get an older dog that works out--actually our Lucy is an example of that--we got her from the pound as a mature dog nearly 2 years ago--she had some difficulties in settling in but she's become quite devoted and very protective--truly "our" dog...but in a lot of cases we could do a lot worse and get a dog that simply won't learn to live peacefully with cats. Puppies are easier.

Besides, I've seen enough ugly-as-sin purebred dogs that are supposed to be of good breeding and that come from reputable breeders. If those are good examples of their breed then I have to say I don't have a lot of use for some of your reputable breeders that are supposedly breeding for the betterment of the breed. Sorry, but IMO it takes more than registration papers, a high price tag and a 20 page questionnaire to make a dog worth having or a breeder worth buying from.

 

[hunterridgefarm]

i will give my 2 cents

when i was little all we had was MUTTS and they made the best dogs. my father did not worry about us with the dogs that we had. with that said all dogs can turn on you. not just pitt bull dogs. my aunt and my bother raise pitts to hunt with and let them have a bad one they are put down.

as to the designer dogs it is stupid why put a label on a mutt.

if it was my dogs which i have the cattle dogs and starting up a kennel the first of jan. i will not mess up the breed by breeding a bitch to a non-reg or a mutt dog. to much hard work has went into to it.

i am getting a bitch that will be bred to the top acd in may. i only plan on doing one breeding a year. and a pet will be sold on a Spay or Neuter contact. i will not have my blood line or the other people blood lines mess up either. and yes a show dog will be higher and sold on a contact where the pup has to be shown.

please dont bred to be breeding. you need to have your dog vet checked to make sure there is no faults with your dog.

diane

 

[uwharrie]

Well any reputable breeder will use more than registration papers, high price tags and questionaires.

Reputable breeders have..

• Years of experience
• Conformation or performance titles ( how else can you say your dogs are "quality")
• HEALTH TESTING ( and I am not saying just go to your local vet and say "they are vaccinated and worm free" I am saying doing testing for genetic diseases from Board certified specialist or DNA testing if available.
• NOT breeding fluffy to muffy just because you happen to have both of them in your back yard and they both happen to be the same breed.
• Member of their breed club ( or all breed club or performance club)
• Offer health guarantees ( including genetic diseases)and so on
  

No reputable breeder will willingly breed crosses. And for the most part their puppies are much CHEAPER than the commercial breeders/ pet stores, ect.

Besides, I've seen enough ugly-as-sin purebred dogs that are supposed to be of good breeding and that come from reputable breeders. If those are good examples of their breed then I have to say I don't have a lot of use for some of your reputable breeders that are supposedly breeding for the betterment of the breed. Sorry, but IMO it takes more than registration papers, a high price tag and a 20 page questionnaire to make a dog worth having or a breeder worth buying from.

 

[lilmiraclesfarm]

I just want to mention I see some posts stateing breeders have high price tags. I don't know about your areas but to buy a dog in a petstore is almost double to buy one from a breeder. Not to mention with a breeder your at least guranteed some sort of health gurantee. I bought my min pin a few years ago from a breeder in Arizona. I'm from Connecticut. She still cost me less to buy her and the plain ticket to get her here than if I went to the petstore 15 minutes away.

 

[Jill]

For whatever it is worth, we recently lost our shih tzu golden child, Winston. He was only 10yo. He had health issues including kidney / bladder stones (two surgeries for this), a heart murmur, and tooth problems. The vet thinks he had a liver tumor which ruptured and caused him to pass away fairly suddenly. I am certain he came from a puppy mill. We went to a house in a town near us responding to an ad in the paper and when we got there, they asked what kind of puppy did we want to see (not a good sign). They had many breeds and were showing them to people in the garage. But, we'd come for a puppy and we could not resist Winston. For all his health problems, he was truly The One. Wouldn't trade out 10 years with him for anything.

However, due to his issues, I estimate we spent an additional $10k on him over his life to address, as best we could, his health issues. We got him at 6wks old in Stafford, VA. He was born in Oklahoma... so I think there's only about 1 way a very young puppy travels that far (tractor trailer truck from a puppy mill).

Now we have Watson and he is very healthy and also a shih tzu. He came from a great lady who is also a vet, and a member here, which is an extra comfort to us. There are responsible and carrying breeders out there, and some of them breed purebreds and some of them breed desireable crosses.

 

[Sonya]

I guess as long as there is a market there will be designer dogs. I don't necessarily see it as any more of a problem then purebred breeding...there are purebred breeders out there who shouldn't be breeding dogs either. There are just as many purebred dogs in shelters as there are "mutts". I don't think that designer dog breeders are contributing to the problem anymore than any other breeder. There are some cross breeders on this forum and to say they are "irresponsible" breeders just because the dog can't be papered is not fair IMO. Not everyone cares if their dog can be registered or not.

 

[Reijel's Mom]

. . . a 20 page questionnaire to make a dog worth having or a breeder worth buying from.

Do you actually take issue with a breeder or a rescue asking lots of questions before placing a dog in a home??

 

[Reijel's Mom]

Well any reputable breeder will use more than registration papers, high price tags and questionaires.

Reputable breeders have..

• Years of experience
• Conformation or performance titles ( how else can you say your dogs are "quality")
• HEALTH TESTING ( and I am not saying just go to your local vet and say "they are vaccinated and worm free" I am saying doing testing for genetic diseases from Board certified specialist or DNA testing if available.
• NOT breeding fluffy to muffy just because you happen to have both of them in your back yard and they both happen to be the same breed.
• Member of their breed club ( or all breed club or performance club)
• Offer health guarantees ( including genetic diseases)and so on
  

Well said. I would also like to add that I personally would only consider someone a reputable breeder if they also have spay/nueter contracts on most of the puppies they sell.

And, I myself would only purchase from a breeder who is also involved in breed rescue and who requests that if a dog you purchase from them is to be rehomed for any reason that you contact them first.

 

[topnotchminis]

[..

 

[Reijel's Mom]

Well, I'll tell you this--I'll give more money for a cross bred dog than I will most purebreds. We've almost always had mutts--if not mixed breeds then "mutt-bred" purebreds....purebred but not registered--technically mutts, because who can say for sure what the breeding behind them is? And they've been the best dogs--no health problems, no issues with poor temperament...no high price tag, no questionnaire to complete before I'm allowed to buy--just a dog that I like. And no, I probably won't go to a shelter for such a dog, unless they happen to have a puppy--because I prefer to get puppies that can grow up in my home and learn to live within the rules from the start. I could be lucky and get an older dog that works out--actually our Lucy is an example of that--we got her from the pound as a mature dog nearly 2 years ago--she had some difficulties in settling in but she's become quite devoted and very protective--truly "our" dog...but in a lot of cases we could do a lot worse and get a dog that simply won't learn to live peacefully with cats. Puppies are easier.
Besides, I've seen enough ugly-as-sin purebred dogs that are supposed to be of good breeding and that come from reputable breeders. If those are good examples of their breed then I have to say I don't have a lot of use for some of your reputable breeders that are supposedly breeding for the betterment of the breed. Sorry, but IMO it takes more than registration papers, a high price tag and a 20 page questionnaire to make a dog worth having or a breeder worth buying from.

I work at a shelter and most of the dogs are puppies. We get any kind of mix you want heelers, labs, shepherd, border collie, australian shepherd, beagle, basset, hounds, cocker spaniels, shih-tzu, chiuaua, and just about any other breed.

I volunteer (would be happy to work there but we don't have funds for staff!) for a shelter, too, and we also have plenty of puppies, mostly the larger mixed breeds. Our most recent litter was found along the side of the road on a freezing night in a box.

 

[anoki]

I knew this was going to be a hot topic!!

But I haven't had a chance to read everything posted until now.

There has been a lot of good points brought up...but I would like to make a few comments on some of the things that have been posted. I have owned mutts in the past, and I currently breed AKC & CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) registered dogs. Cardigan corgis are believed to be at least 3,000 years old (Pembrokes are quite a bit 'newer' than that) Because I show, papers are HUGE for me. What I don't get is people who think papers on a dog are ridiculous, yet expect them on a mini, for example. That's fine if you don't want to register them when you are keeping them for a pet, I have no issue with that...not every purebred dog is worth being in a breeding program, but they still hold those qualities that make them that breed. I have 2 girls here that may not ever be bred, but they have some REALLY good things going for them. I'm not saying everyone should buy a purebred dog, not every dog (purebred of mixed) is for everyone. Corgis are definitely NOT for every person or lifestyle. The mutts that I've had, had FAR more health issues than my corgis have had....genetic? I don't know, I don't have any papers from the mutts to know if the 'issues' stemmed from anything specific. The one good thing about having papers, you can track down WHERE some of these genetic issues are stemming from!!!!!!! Just the same as horses....

That said, I too am scratching my head at why the pet stores are suddenly offering so many non-papered puppies. As if the puppy mills weren't bad enough, now we're intentionally creating dogs with no sustainable value? It's crazy!

The idea of puppy mills and pet store buyers makes me sick and most of them sell purebreds that are worse quality than any mutt. How is that better?

Are you kidding? Puppy mills have jumped ALL over the whole designer dog thing! Heck I would almost guarantee they started it! And I don't know many pet stores that sell PUREBRED dogs anymore.....WHY? Because 'responsible breeders' DON'T SELL TO PET STORES!

I was quite surprised to learn how many horse breeders choose to breed dogs for the fast money they can make to support their horse habit.

I'm sure (at least I hope) that was said tongue in cheek, because if anyone breeds dogs (or horses for that matter) hoping to make a quick buck....they have rocks in their heads!

As for designer dogs, it is just another way for puppy mills, either large or small, to make money on the backs of animals. There is no way that you can know what you are getting in a designer dog. Those that are bred to poodles, one hopes that the dog they get will be a non shedding, non allergetic dog. But too often that is not the case and the poor puppy ends up in the humane society.
It takes many, many gerations of breeding to produce a dog that will consistantly be the same with the same characteristics of all the others of that breed. My breed, the Tibetan Terrier is over 2000 years old. It takes years and years for AKC to accept a new breed, for instance, the Jack Russel. For years that breed was very inconsistant in the way it looked. Some had very short legs, some had long legs. Until they were able to get a consistant look and temperment to them, they could not be registered with AKC.

It was over 35 years ago that breeders first started the concept of designer dogs with the cockerpoo. I heard way back then that it would take no time at all to make it a breed that AKC would accept. Well, to this day, they do not accept the breed. Why? Because it is still too inconsistant. Some have coats and personlaities like poodles, some like cockers. How is one to know what they are getting when they purchase one?

Well said....

I take HUGE exception when people say that purebred dogs are just WAY too much money. Well 'designer dogs' around here are selling for double what I sold my purebred dogs for....who's out for the quick bucks there????? All those people have put into the pups are the cost of the parents and the cost of feeding.

I take HUGE exception to certain breeders of 'designer dogs' selling them to buyers telling them that they will be able to register them that they are on the doorstep to being recognized into the Kennel Club, or creating fictitious registries and handing the new owners the dogs 'papers'...and believe me it is happening!

Riverdance is correct when saying about dogs not being accepted into registries until there is consistency to the look (horses aren't much different, are they???). One of the doodle crosses (sorry I can't keep the Labradoodles and Goldendoodles straight in my mind), has no consistency to their look at all, have serious skin & soundness issues, and temperament issues to boot.

I'm not saying mutts and designer dogs are all horrible, I've met some really neat crosses that I wouldn't mind owning (and I've owned a St Bernard/Black Lab cross that I would buy again in a heart beat....but we didn't pay more than $25 for her!!! I know that was a few years ago, but no way would I pay more than $150 for a mixed breed dog....sorry)

It is interesting to see that the term 'back yard breeder' has almost disappeared, and now it is all about 'responsible breeders'. We had an interesting discussing on another list about this....pretty much every person has a different opinion on what a 'responsible breeder' is.

I'm not bashing what people have said on here, or what people think and by NO MEANS am I an expert on any of this....I'm just offering my opinions on things....it is definitely Buyer Beware and do your homework before buying ANYTHING...dogs, horses, whatever!

~kathryn

 

[topnotchminis]

.

 

[My-Lil-Pony]

I was quite surprised to learn how many horse breeders choose to breed dogs for the fast money they can make to support their horse habit.

I'm sure (at least I hope) that was said tongue in cheek, because if anyone breeds dogs (or horses for that matter) hoping to make a quick buck....they have rocks in their heads!

~kathryn

No I was serious. I know many who breed dogs papered but not show dogs and make $2500.00 - $3500.00 a litter. A few litters at a time that adds up to pretty decent money. I am not saying it is good or bad just what I have noticed with many horse breeders and even more often with breeders of Miniature Horses.

 

[tagalong]

Sorry, but IMO it takes more than registration papers, a high price tag and a 20 page questionnaire to make a dog worth having or a breeder worth buying from.

Any breeder who did NOT have a questionnaire... did NOT interview me... did NOT seek to match up a puppy with me for temperament and future activities... and thus did not demonstrate that they were dedicated to their breed and had concerns for the future of every puppy they produced - would NOT have my business. I guess I do not understand why showing such concern for placing their puppies in the best home possible is seen as a bad thing.

Any breeder who did not have a Right of First Refusal on the contract - as in, they wish that dog to return to them in the event that it needs a new home - at any point in the life of that dog - is not worth dealing with. A breeder like that - CARES. They take responsibility for that life they created - forever.

As opposed to those crossing backyard Lab to the other Lab down the block just to make purebred puppies and a bit of $$$.

As opposed to those crossing low-quality Lab to pet-quality Standard Poodle to jump on the Labradoodle Designer Dog bandwagon - and often charging more for those puppies than a respected Lab or Poodle breeder would be asking for their puppies - with known bloodlines showing both conformation and performance titles. Now there are even Toy and Miniature Labradoodles available... which seems very far removed from the Lab part of any breeding.

Sometimes all it takes is a cute name for a "purebred"/designer dog - and $$$$ results.

The current rage around here is Puggles. Why? Why would pugs and beagles be considered a good cross? They were bred for entirely different purposes... and have their individual personality quirks and endearing temperaments - but no matter. Puggles seem to be getting churned out in alarming qualities... with little concern for anything beyond quantity.

The guy down the road has a Schnoodle that he walks along the road every afternoon... I thought it was a pet-quality and obviously loved Soft-Coated Wheaten Terrier. I stopped to compliment him on his well-behaved pup - who always returns to his owner and does a flying finish to heel when a vehicle approaches on our narrow road. Not a Wheaten, he said proudly - he did not even know what that was - but a Schnoodle from the Top Schnoodle Breeder in North America. The breeder had told him that they had had many generations of champions at Westminster. He said that he had to pay $$$$$$$$$$$ for this one - as it was the pick of the litter and was going to be a top show dog.

Uh huh. Mmmmmmkay.

I said the pup was very sweet and smart, but there had never been generations of Schnoodle champions at Westminster. Or anywhere else. And I am sure he paid more for that pup than he would have for a Wheaten puppy from a dedicated breeder near here who has bred and shown and trialed Wheatens for over 40 years.

And then as Jill found out - there are the puppy mills (and those who supply them) who churn out "purebreds" of any breed... again, with no concern about health issues or quality... but look - it has AKC papers and is thus a fancy "purebred"!!

When so many dogs are euthanized every year - I guess I cannot understand the need to create more "breeds" ...

Maybe that puggle mill person out there would have a different opinion if they had spent time - as I have - holding the dogs at the shelter for their final shot... and cradling them as they went limp and slipped away. All sizes, all shapes... all unwanted.

And both my dogs (currently a Border terrier and a Smooth Fox) have breeders who will take them back on a moment's notice should something catastrophic happen... who still stay in touch with me and ask about them.

Breeders who believe in quality as opposed to quantity. Breeders who plan every litter very carefully - and may not even have one every year (or even every two or three years) .... breeders who genuinely care about the breed.

And yes - I have had mutts as well. But they were mutts - not given a fancy designer name or a big price tag to go with it. Just smart, funny dogs without pretensions.

All the above is JMO - YMMV.

 

[Reijel's Mom]

Are you kidding? Puppy mills have jumped ALL over the whole designer dog thing! Heck I would almost guarantee they started it! And I don't know many pet stores that sell PUREBRED dogs anymore.....WHY? Because 'responsible breeders' DON'T SELL TO PET STORES!
[~kathryn

Kathryn, from what I've "seen" of you on here, I definitely count you amongst the "good guys" - but around here, pet stores still offer primarily purebreds, though they do have their share of the new mixes. You are right, responsible breeders don't sell to pet stores - but there are way more irresponsible breeders out there, including the millers that sell to pet stores.

 

[Reijel's Mom]

I was quite surprised to learn how many horse breeders choose to breed dogs for the fast money they can make to support their horse habit.

I'm sure (at least I hope) that was said tongue in cheek, because if anyone breeds dogs (or horses for that matter) hoping to make a quick buck....they have rocks in their heads!

~kathryn

No I was serious. I know many who breed dogs papered but not show dogs and make $2500.00 - $3500.00 a litter. A few litters at a time that adds up to pretty decent money. I am not saying it is good or bad just what I have noticed with many horse breeders and even more often with breeders of Miniature Horses.

I'd have to agree this does happen - a LOT. It's not hard to make a LOT of money off a litter when you already have the male/female, do zero testing, give minimal (if any) vet care, and sell them for top dollar to anyone who will take them. Not hard at all!

 

[LowriseMinis]

And I should add I have what I believe is a designer dog, a "Dorgi", a Dachshund/Corgi cross that has been in part popularized by the Queen of England herself.

I found him in the undefunded kill shelter the next county over at four months old with his littermates, all scared out of their minds because they had been left in someone's backyard to go feral. It took a week before he'd leave his crate on his own, about a month for him to play with toys and start moving around the house. A year and a half later he's almost a normal dog! Now he's obviously poorly (and maybe not even intentionally) bred, I predict a lot of leg and back problems in his future. IMO, crossing two short legged/long backed breeds is just a terrible idea, but I love my little mutt.

Also, I got my designer dog for $95.

Shortly after I got him:

And this past year at the dog park.

Adorable though he is...he's not a well formed dog. It pains me to think of anyone out there cranking out Marlowes to make a buck, or ANY dog, mutt or purebred, for the sole purpose of making money. If you're breeding right, you're lucky to break even, and I think that applies to most animals.

 

[tinypony]

I think regardless of animal type, person, whatever, it is all a question of "right" versus "responsibility". Some people think they have the "right" to breed whatever, or the "right" to have as many children as they want, and others see it as our responisibility to think beyond our own wants and desires. For now we all have rights, but if we keep abusing them, we will find ourselves with nothing, or our children will in the future. I see it as selfish versus caring. Our living space in the world is overpopulated, not just by people, so at some point it is time to quit worrying about "me, myself, and I" and start caring about "we".

....and kudos to those of you who volunteer not only your time to the shelters, but your emotions. It is a horrible feeling to watch as the lights go out, I've done it way too much myself. Keep it up, you are making a difference.

 

[Boinky]

I think in many ways breeding any sort of animal is perhaps a selfish whim of humanity. I breed australian Shepherds occationally. To me a puppymill can be a good or bad place ....i've seen very well set up and maintained puppy mills where the animals were well cared for but many litters were pumped out all the time (sorry still a puppymill). I dont' nessarily agree with that but at least the animals are fed and clean and cared for. Then there are puppymills who don't care for their animals. PUt them in small gross smelly cages and pump litter after litter with no reguard to care.

Anyone that breeds dogs as a business would know if you do it RIGHT it's not a huge money earning venture. To do it RIGHT in MY opinion means that you do the normal health clearances on these animals (hip, eye, elbow, heart, or what have you for your breeds) and you stand behind your dogs. Every puppy i place i tell them i'll take them back for ANY reason at ANY time. I may not always be able to afford to BUY them nback but they have a place here and i'll help find them a new home. All my breeding dogs have had hip and eye certs which neither are cheap. Feeding breeding stock is not cheap and raising puppies if done right is NOT cheap. One year i sat down and broke it down form a business perspective (my dogs are more pets/hobbies and i only breed for what i want and when i want a puppy myself). I think I figured i was about $5K in the hole after my first litter if you factored in the cost of the parents and all the stuff surrounding them to own and keep them (again this is from a purely business perspective). I think i figured it would take me several litters to break even IF i didn't spend another cent on the litters or my breeding stock inbetween (which we all know is not possible).

I COULD see how you might make tons of money if you were one of the aformention puppymills that do nothing for their dogs. They do not worm them, give them shots, veterinary, cheapest quality food, care ect ect ect. you just pump out litter after litter...if the bitch dies..oh well keep on going... pick up dogs cheap as breeding stock ect. i can theoretically see how you could make a TON of money that way...but i can't see how you'd make much money if you bred as a "responsible" breeder that does the health certs, feeds excellent/good feeds. those are a huge part of expenses.

I dont' agree with "designer breeds" but i wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with them IF they would do health clearances and try to selectively breed quality dogs of each breed (ie. goldens that do not have allergys and skin issues, hip displasia, ect). I think there are far too many out there that are from very low quality lines that are a genetic time bomb waiting to happen.