Equine influenza and rabies

[Poodlepill]

I am curious about the Rabies vaccination. Dogs have a 3 year (unfortunately in my area most vets don't push) and studies going on proving immunity for up to a lifetime from the initial dosage. I have read that the 1 year is the same as the 3 year just "labeled" differently so they have to abide by what the label says, is this true?

Tetanus, why is it that humans need only get a tetanus every 10-ish years but livestock is every year?

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

I don't agree. I order all my vaccines in late February, so they are shipped when it's cold outside.They are also boxed with ice packs when shipped. I think that when a vet orders his rabies supply he faces the same shipping as a consumer would. I wouldn't necessarily think his would arrive in his office any faster than mine arrive at home. I wouldn't order them during warm months. Then they go right into the fridge until I use them. rabies vaccines get done the first week of March, EWT and West Nile get done the first week of May.

Consider the situation of a horse being at a show that starts showing signs of a neurologic disease and the owner says, 'no worries about rabies, I gave the vaccine myself'.

Vets play many roles, one is performing techniques beyond the skill of the lay person, but another is a regulatory role. Giving and caring for vaccines is not difficult at all, being sure the vaccines are appropriate for a given patient and providing a legal record are tasks only a professional can perform.

Dr Taylor

 

[Matt73]

When I asked two different vets in our area, neither seemed to think vaccinating against PHF was all that important. I used to vaccinate for it every year, except I didn't last year, since the two vets weren't concerned about it. They both said my horses aren't at risk. They said there are relatively few cases of it in Wisconsin. Also, my horses are in stalls in a locked barn at night with no lights that might attract the mayflies. Our hay is all stored inside the barn, and we don't live close to any natural water sources. They also said that if they did come down with it, the treatment was oxytetracycline IV, and horses will almost always fully recover from it, unless they have a badly compromised system to start with.

So not true. A case of PHF comes on extremely quickly and death can occur within two days of symptoms. We had a rash of PHF-like cases around here this past summer, including my Willow and Royal (who was euthanised at Guelph). A family down the road had a Clyde mare get it when she was in foal. They ended up saving her and the unborn foal, but she foundered horribly (another possible complication). She was, eventually, euthanised. The foal got PHF later, too, and was euthanised. My Royal had symptoms and was treated and brought to Guelph within 24 hours. He developed hyperlipemia (sp?) and had to be euthanized (albeit, they, I feel did not treat him properly). When Willow developed symptoms, I called another vet and he put her on oxytetracycline IV, immediately (along with electrolytes etc.). She was given this for 5 days and recovered beautifully. About 2 weeks later she was showing severe symptoms of ulcers (grinding teeth, depressed, not eating). We had her on omeprazole for 30 days and now she is a different horse. She is happy and uppity and has a spark that I didn't see in her even when I first bought her (she was infested with roundworms and lice...so the ulcers could have come from that, too). My point is is that with PHF you have to catch it and treat it extremely quickly. And even then complications/death can occur from secondary complications. So, I'm sorry to say that your vet is gravely mistaken.

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

I have my vet give Rabies vaccinations, I want to have "on file" that they received it, because of visitors to the farm. And horses are held to the same laws as dogs regarding Rabies, so better to have it given by a vet so there is proof they've had it. I've also not had bad reactions from this vaccine, they get a little heat at the injection site, but not very sore.

I give Prestige V myself, it's Tetanus/EEE/WEE/Flu & Rhino, but I feel it's important to boost the mare's immunity prior to foaling to give the foal the best start possible. My non-showing/breeding horses I give Tetanus/EEE/WEE.

I've never given Potomac, I'll have to check again with my vet about that one, and I stopped giving West Nile a few years ago. Haven't decided yet if I will do it this year.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

I am curious about the Rabies vaccination. Dogs have a 3 year (unfortunately in my area most vets don't push) and studies going on proving immunity for up to a lifetime from the initial dosage. I have read that the 1 year is the same as the 3 year just "labeled" differently so they have to abide by what the label says, is this true?

Tetanus, why is it that humans need only get a tetanus every 10-ish years but livestock is every year?

The rabies vaccine is exactly the same. The Laws in different areas determine the protocol, some areas do not allow a 3 yr vacc due to the endemic nature of rabies in that area.

Tetanus does not effect every species equally. For example, we never vacc dogs for tetanus. I'm not sure of the immunity status of horses for tetanus, but I will say the standard of care is to booster any vacc >90 days old if an injury occurs. That means you would open yourself up to a lawsuit if you failed to.

Dr Taylor

 

[maggiemae]

Last year when my vet gave my little mare her vaccines he gave her a four way plus rabies - she came down very sick and we about lost her. He insists that it wasn't the vaccines but now I'm afraid to give her any - can it make them sick?

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Last year when my vet gave my little mare her vaccines he gave her a four way plus rabies - she came down very sick and we about lost her. He insists that it wasn't the vaccines but now I'm afraid to give her any - can it make them sick?

I will leave the opinion that the vaccine didn't cause the illness to the Vet that worked the case. He would have no good reason to mislead you. Frankly, the day after getting vaccinated is just as likely as any other day for an animal to get sick.

Killed vaccines are just that, dead. They not only do not contain any live viruses/bacteria, they usually contain only broken pieces of the virus/bacteria not the complete bug, so it will not give them the disease you are vaccinating against. But, to get vaccines to work better they usually contain an adjuvant. The adjuvant or the vaccine by its immunogenic nature can cause local reactions and systemic side effects at times.

In people, mothers are quite used to having their children acting very tough after a vaccine and some Nsaid is given frequently for a day or two. In animals, owners are quite disturbed to experience a similar situation.

For concerned owners or horses that have demonstrated a greater than average side effect I give bute, banamine, dexamethasone, and/or tripelenamine as a premedication to help limit the reaction.

This is a great question for your Vet, so he can help to determine your risk/reward and cost/benefit.

Dr Taylor

 

[ruffian]

This is a very interesting and informative thread!

My 2 vets (2 different offices/clinics) both recommended against PHF. Their theory was that the current vaccines are specific only for a limited number of species of PHF, and probably would not protect against most. I had a 2YO mare come down with it even though she was vaccinated and we almost lost her.

I've never given rabies to my horses here. When Thumper went to the trainers in KY he was given the vaccine. I'm going to talk to my vets again this year about this.

 

[Margo_C-T]

I have routinely given a 5 way(EEE,WEE, tetanus, flu, rhino), and a West Nile separately, for some years now. That said, I am debating giving only a 3 or perhaps, a 4 way, dropping the flu and maybe the rhino,components. I prefer to give the WN as a separate shot.

I have never given Rabies here, nor do I know ANYONE who does(to horses); I may ask my vet about it, though. We are a dry environment, and the wildlife population is fairly sparse where I live. Here, the vet HAS to give rabies,as it cannot be ordered by individuals in NM.

I have a 'closed herd'; do not show or travel hardly any nowadays. All horses are well into adulthood and nothing is bred. If I were to decide to take anyone to a show or other event,I would likely give a booster for rhino and flu at least a couple of weeks ahead of that occasion.

Last year, I gave my senior(age 28)only an EEE/WEE/tetanus.

Margo

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

This is a very interesting and informative thread!

My 2 vets (2 different offices/clinics) both recommended against PHF. Their theory was that the current vaccines are specific only for a limited number of species of PHF, and probably would not protect against most. I had a 2YO mare come down with it even though she was vaccinated and we almost lost her.

I've never given rabies to my horses here. When Thunmper went to the trainers in KY he was given the vaccine. I'm going to talk to my vets again this year about this.

PHF is a tough one. Because the bacteria lives inside of the host's cells, antigen/antibody immunity doesn't work well. Well ag/ab immunity is what vaccines produce, so vaccines don't work well.

I doubt any Vet would report that the vaccine produces great immunity, but some (like me) feel that vaccination does reduce the incidence of disease some, and those that do get sick, tend to not get as severely sick.

Will there still be some that do get severely sick and even die even though they received the vaccine? Yes. So the decision needs to be made on a farm by farm and area by area basis.

Dr Taylor

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

I have never lived nor worked in an area where Potomac was recommended. No clinic I've worked at even stocked the vaccine, it was all special order.

 

[wildoak]

Last year when my vet gave my little mare her vaccines he gave her a four way plus rabies - she came down very sick and we about lost her. He insists that it wasn't the vaccines but now I'm afraid to give her any - can it make them sick?

Not trying to stir up anything, I vaccinate my horses, dogs & cats - although I try to do so prudently and not overvaccinate - but we had something happen last year that has made me consider vaccines more carefully. I had a perfectly healthy young cat vaccinated for rabies, she started having seizures within an hour, and progressively got worse over a couple of days, ultimately dying. The vet told me absolutely that it was a coincidence and was not related to the vaccine. I did my own research (too little too late) and found that not to be the case. So I don't know what happened with your mare, but I know I lost an animal to a rabies vaccine reaction. Again, I do still vaccinate but I don't do it without considering pros and cons.

Jan

 

[maggiemae]

He said she might have choked but he ran a tube down her and there were no blockages and he could not find much evidence for her choking - he said it must have resovled itself before he got back to the farm - but on the same day of her vaccines, within a couple of hours of the shot? Just a coincidence? Maybe, but all of her symptoms were like what we were vaccinating her against. She staggered around like a drunk horse, walked headlong into walls, ran a high fever, quit eating, etc. The vet came out every day for about 6 days - we just about lost her. Now... I'm afraid to vaccinate her and I'm afraid not to. He is a wonderful vet - he takes good care of her. But when I asked him about this he said he had never had that kind of reaction to a vaccine and told me the same thing as Dr. Taylor just said on this thread about dead viruses, but when I finally agreed to let him to vaccinate her --- he said to put it off until next month and then he said we should seperate them up just in case she is very sensitive to the shots. So, now, I'm not sure what to do. She is the love of my heart - I don't want to lose her over something like an immunization, or a preventable disease that she could have been immunized against.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Vaccines are not without their risks. The adjuncts used can cause reactions. The vaccines can cause an hyperimmune response. They are NOT perfect. But they are the best protection we have, and the risk is very small compared to the benefits. Be VERY careful doing "research" on the internet... there is so much misinformation out there that it looks like its scripture.

 

[Poodlepill]

Not trying to stir up anything, I vaccinate my horses, dogs & cats - although I try to do so prudently and not overvaccinate - but we had something happen last year that has made me consider vaccines more carefully. I had a perfectly healthy young cat vaccinated for rabies, she started having seizures within an hour, and progressively got worse over a couple of days, ultimately dying. The vet told me absolutely that it was a coincidence and was not related to the vaccine. I did my own research (too little too late) and found that not to be the case. So I don't know what happened with your mare, but I know I lost an animal to a rabies vaccine reaction. Again, I do still vaccinate but I don't do it without considering pros and cons.

Jan

So sorry for your loss. I am really concerned that this is the second vaccine reaction talked about here in this discussion that the Vet was so sure it was not a reaction. This is how the vaccine manufacturers hide behind their reaction statistics, they are rarely reported so the vaccine history is "great". Why the heck wont they acknowledge that it even "may" be a reaction..........This stuff needs to be reported as a reaction and I don't understand why it is so hush hush.

 

[Matt73]

So not true. A case of PHF comes on extremely quickly and death can occur within two days of symptoms. We had a rash of PHF-like cases around here this past summer, including my Willow and Royal (who was euthanised at Guelph). A family down the road had a Clyde mare get it when she was in foal. They ended up saving her and the unborn foal, but she foundered horribly (another possible complication). She was, eventually, euthanised. The foal got PHF later, too, and was euthanised. My Royal had symptoms and was treated and brought to Guelph within 24 hours. He developed hyperlipemia (sp?) and had to be euthanized (albeit, they, I feel did not treat him properly). When Willow developed symptoms, I called another vet and he put her on oxytetracycline IV, immediately (along with electrolytes etc.). She was given this for 5 days and recovered beautifully. About 2 weeks later she was showing severe symptoms of ulcers (grinding teeth, depressed, not eating). We had her on omeprazole for 30 days and now she is a different horse. She is happy and uppity and has a spark that I didn't see in her even when I first bought her (she was infested with roundworms and lice...so the ulcers could have come from that, too). My point is is that with PHF you have to catch it and treat it extremely quickly. And even then complications/death can occur from secondary complications. So, I'm sorry to say that your vet is gravely mistaken.

I just wanted to re-iterate that PHF is not commonly seen in my area, too (never heard of 10 years ago). My vet seems to think that the rise in cases is as a result of the hot summer etc. More bugs...and I did see Mayflies. My horses are only out from 7-4. They are stalled at night with the lights off. My hay is stored in a clean, dry, dark loft (just like your horses). I won't vaccinate for it (for the reasons stated...it's not that effective etc.) this year, but anything can happen. This past summer taught me that.

 

[Poodlepill]

He said she might have choked but he ran a tube down her and there were no blockages and he could not find much evidence for her choking - he said it must have resovled itself before he got back to the farm - but on the same day of her vaccines, within a couple of hours of the shot? Just a coincidence? Maybe, but all of her symptoms were like what we were vaccinating her against. She staggered around like a drunk horse, walked headlong into walls, ran a high fever, quit eating, etc. The vet came out every day for about 6 days - we just about lost her. Now... I'm afraid to vaccinate her and I'm afraid not to. He is a wonderful vet - he takes good care of her. But when I asked him about this he said he had never had that kind of reaction to a vaccine and told me the same thing as Dr. Taylor just said on this thread about dead viruses, but when I finally agreed to let him to vaccinate her --- he said to put it off until next month and then he said we should seperate them up just in case she is very sensitive to the shots. So, now, I'm not sure what to do. She is the love of my heart - I don't want to lose her over something like an immunization, or a preventable disease that she could have been immunized against.

Here is another vaccine reaction (in this little thread) that the Vet didn't want to call a reaction and probably not reported. How are we the public suppose to get the correct "safety" facts for the injections we are giving our animals when the reactions are not being reported so the vaccine manufactureres dont have to do anything but collect the money. What is the problem with reporting a reaction?

 

[JennyB]

Not trying to stir up anything, I vaccinate my horses, dogs & cats - although I try to do so prudently and not overvaccinate - but we had something happen last year that has made me consider vaccines more carefully. I had a perfectly healthy young cat vaccinated for rabies, she started having seizures within an hour, and progressively got worse over a couple of days, ultimately dying. The vet told me absolutely that it was a coincidence and was not related to the vaccine. I did my own research (too little too late) and found that not to be the case. So I don't know what happened with your mare, but I know I lost an animal to a rabies vaccine reaction. Again, I do still vaccinate but I don't do it without considering pros and cons.

Jan

Jan I am so sorry that this happened to you how sad. I wonder how many times this happens? I new some Arabian breeder friends of mine. They had an up-start really nice weanling colt and gave him his vaccines. The last they administered was Tetanus and he layed down and died within minutes of giving. They were very upset to say the least and were very afraid to give Tetanus after that, although they were told it was just a fluke

I am so sorry about your cat!

 

I had another Arabian friend who was concerned about the West Nile vaccine she was giving her horses. She gave the vaccine for 2 years and then had her vet test them in the 3rd year and the 4th year. They had enough protection as they did the first year. So she has since stopped giving all her horses and other pets so much vaccine. Her thoughts all along were that we are all over-vaccinating all of our animals!

 

Sometimes I wonder and agree with her...Thanks Dr Taylor for your advise!

 

Jenny

 

[weebiscuit]

I would like you to talk to your Vets again, as the information you give for mortality and severity is far from what the literature reports. I think there may have been an error in communication. Mortality is usually reported as 10-30%. Oxytetracycline is relatively cheap, but if IV fluids and hospitalization are required, then costs can quickly swell. Oxytetracycline IV can also lead to catastrophic reactions and I have killed a horse with Oxytetracycline.

I did my intership in Janesville, WI and I remember a summer filled with PHF cases, but WI is a big state.

Not vaccinating may still be the right/reasonable choice, but I want you to make that decision with the best information available.

Dr Taylor

Janesville is only two hours southeast of us! Too close for comfort if you said you had that many cases! Can I ask you this... is the incidence of PHF based at all on being in the vicinity of water, where the flies that cause it hatch out? We don't have water near us, and I wonder if that's what my vets based their opinions on? But, maybe there WAS something I didn't understand, and I will ask them again.

 

[ohmt]

If the vaccine given was a killed form of the virus, then your animals could not have actually gotten the illness it was vaccinated against from the vaccine. Now the killed viruses require an adjuvant like Dr. Taylor has already mentioned and it is very widely disputed as to their safety. The adjuvant is absolutely necessary though (acts as the second signal during T cell activation. Without it there is no activation and then no immune response). The live vaccines are the ones that may cause illness though it is still usually unlikely. The virus is made so it's not as virulent, but there are still risks. For this reason it is never recommended to be given to immunocompromised individuals, children, elderly, or pregnant women. I always choose the live vaccines over the killed for myself if the option is available. They do a better job of building immunity plus there is no adjuvant.

There is no perfect vaccine. The most 'ideal' vaccine we've ever had is the smallpox vaccine and even that one ended up giving 1,000 out of 1,000,000 vaccinated a systemic vaccinia (pox-like virus) illness which resulted in 1-2 deaths out of that 1,000,000. When giving vaccines you have to weigh the pros and cons. The pros almost always outweigh the cons.