Equine influenza and rabies

[weebiscuit]

I would like you to talk to your Vets again, as the information you give for mortality and severity is far from what the literature reports. I think there may have been an error in communication. Mortality is usually reported as 10-30%. Oxytetracycline is relatively cheap, but if IV fluids and hospitalization are required, then costs can quickly swell. Oxytetracycline IV can also lead to catastrophic reactions and I have killed a horse with Oxytetracycline.

I did my intership in Janesville, WI and I remember a summer filled with PHF cases, but WI is a big state.

Not vaccinating may still be the right/reasonable choice, but I want you to make that decision with the best information available.

Dr Taylor

Janesville is only two hours southeast of us! Too close for comfort if you said you had that many cases! Can I ask you this... is the incidence of PHF based at all on being in the vicinity of water, where the flies that cause it hatch out? We don't have water near us, and I wonder if that's what my vets based their opinions on? But, maybe there WAS something I didn't understand, and I will ask them again.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Janesville is only two hours southeast of us! Too close for comfort if you said you had that many cases! Can I ask you this... is the incidence of PHF based at all on being in the vicinity of water, where the flies that cause it hatch out? We don't have water near us, and I wonder if that's what my vets based their opinions on? But, maybe there WAS something I didn't understand, and I will ask them again.

Neoriketssia risticii is carried by fresh water snails, which can transmit the disease to 17 different species of aquatic insects. The horse then acquires the disease by ingesting these bugs, which can spread out onto pastures and throughout water supplies. The disease often requires nine to twelve days of incubation before symptoms appear.

Dr Taylor

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

He said she might have choked but he ran a tube down her and there were no blockages and he could not find much evidence for her choking - he said it must have resovled itself before he got back to the farm - but on the same day of her vaccines, within a couple of hours of the shot? Just a coincidence? Maybe, but all of her symptoms were like what we were vaccinating her against. She staggered around like a drunk horse, walked headlong into walls, ran a high fever, quit eating, etc. The vet came out every day for about 6 days - we just about lost her. Now... I'm afraid to vaccinate her and I'm afraid not to. He is a wonderful vet - he takes good care of her. But when I asked him about this he said he had never had that kind of reaction to a vaccine and told me the same thing as Dr. Taylor just said on this thread about dead viruses, but when I finally agreed to let him to vaccinate her --- he said to put it off until next month and then he said we should seperate them up just in case she is very sensitive to the shots. So, now, I'm not sure what to do. She is the love of my heart - I don't want to lose her over something like an immunization, or a preventable disease that she could have been immunized against.

He wants to split the dose up to decrease the amount of adjuvant given at one time, quite reasonable and normal given a previous incident. Some Vets split up vaccines over numerous trips as a routine. Not a bad idea, but costly.

Dr Taylor

 

[valshingle]

I have to say that I am pro-vaccines. I have a chronically ill child (who gets lots of vaccines) and have worked many years in the medical field. It is as has been previously stated. There are minimal risks with vaccines, so you should weigh your pros and cons. However, I had one horse get sick and die with neurologic symptoms and he had to be tested for rabies. I wasn't nearly as worried as I could have been because the entire herd is annually vaccinated for rabies. I can't even imagine the situation if he had rabies (he did not) and not every horse had been vaccinated. Most vaccines take about 2 weeks to work, so vaccinating a horse after an illness has broken out doesn't usually help.

For the few horses that react negatively to their vaccines, we give them their shots spaced out over a week or more. The vet gives the rabies and then leaves me the rest to give over a specific period of time. I did have one horse that reacted so strongly (fever, achy, lethargic) that I took him to the vet for his shots. She would give him medication to help prevent the strong reactions he got. We also spread out the vaccines for weanlings, yearlings, and pregnant mares. We no longer give pregnant mares the strangles vaccine prior to foaling, but wait until they have foaled.

I do vaccinate for virtually everything: EEE, WEE, VEE, tetanus, flu, rhino, strangles, PHF, WNV, and rabies.

Most of you know that I had EHV burn through my herd a few years ago when I bought some horses at auction (as did a lot of other buyers). A big horse of mine in a pasture well removed from the 'sickies' came down with the neuro form of EHV. He had not been vaccinated recently because I was trying to save money and he never went anywhere. His vet bills totaled $7,000. The outbreak cost $13,000. No horses were lost and all completely recovered. So, I now consider the cost of the vaccines to be well worth every penny. And I have vets do the bulk of the vaccinating.

Just my two cents worth.

 

[Critterhugger]

My horses are fully vaccinated and as you I have a "closed herd". I don't show, I usually vaccinate them myself and even when I take them to the vet I'm very careful and try not to let them sniff around where they might possibly catch something. That being said two of my horses caught what appeared to be influenza a few years back. The only thing it could have been was from migrating birds (which had just come in) because none of my horses had left the farm in months and it was still too cold for bugs. At first I thought it might have also been from some hay that I had bought, but not all my horses got ill so it ruled that out. You never know where they can pick things up from and having a closed herd doesn't necessarily prevent illness.

We are seeing a higher incidence of rabies in our area. If you are in an area with foxes, skunks, raccoons then it is a good idea to get them vaccinated. Our vet has been recommending it for the last few years, where he had not in years past because of the low incidence. There are some things that a horse can recover from, but rabies is not one of them. Better to be safe than sorry.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Your vaccination protocol should be determined by you and your vet.

•  
  
• Where do you live?
  
• Number of horses coming and going?
  
• Shows?
  
• Visitors from other ranches?
  
• Wildlife?
  
• What is endemic to your area?
  

There isn't a good once size fits all IMHO. A few years back we were going to export horses to Korea, and they would NOT accept horses that had been given VEE. We were advised to stop giving it as we are at an extremely low risk of getting VEE in Northern CA.

I give EEE/WEE/Tetanus to my herd. Show horses were given additional vaccines AND they were quarantined when they returned. New horses quarantined too. The nearest horses are 1/2 mile away. Low stress, healthy and immune support helps too.

I don't give rabies here, but if there were an outbreak or cause for alarm I would.

Where I'm at one of the biggest concerns we have is Pigeon Fever and they're isn't a vaccine for that, which generally isn't fatal, but is a PiA. Go figure.

As for ranch cats - they get the full kitten shots and spay neuter. That's it. I've had too many cats get sick over the years from vaccines - which I consider vomiting within 12-24 hours and/or fever, etc., NOT a coincidence. Love my cats, but where we live, they're more likely to get eaten than contract anything. Our dogs keep most wildlife far away.

***Dr. Taylor I have a question, maybe you could point me to the research on this? Why do we give horses annual Tetanus, while it's good for 10years in a human? I've asked people/vets that and have never had an answer other than that's what we do.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

''***Dr. Taylor I have a question, maybe you could point me to the research on this? Why do we give horses annual Tetanus, while it's good for 10years in a human? I've asked people/vets that and have never had an answer other than that's what we do.''

Sorry, no. I do not know of any research that proves why tetanus is annual. So, I'll give you my opinion and that and a quarter won't even get you a coffee any more.

Tetanus effects species wildly differently. We never vaccinate dogs or cats for rabies at all. Predators appear to have a resistance that herbivores do not. People, as omnivores, may sit some where in between, while horses are the most susceptible species I know of.

''I don't give rabies here, but if there were an outbreak or cause for alarm I would''

There really is never an outbreak of rabies. It doesn't get spread that rapidly. Not the best way to make that decision.

Dr Taylor

 

[Margo_C-T]

I'm sorry, but is the statement,"...we never vaccinate dogs and cats for rabies at all..." a mis-statement in your most recent post, Dr. Taylor? Did you mean 'tetanus' instead of rabies, since the question was specifically regarding tetanus? As a matter of fact, dogs and cats are NOT usually given tetanus shots, is that correct?

Your reply was along the lines of what I have heard from reliable sources for some years...that horses are highly susceptible to tetanus(and that it is widely present where horses live). It is pretty inexpensive 'insurance' to give it yearly, IMO. Years ago, there was a horse with tetanus(lockjaw)right down the road from me...it wasn't pretty, and a heck of an object lesson.

Margo

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Sorry, yes. Tetanus not rabies.

Dr Taylor

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Thanks Dr. Taylor.

I give Tetanus annually, I just always wondered why we did with equines or why humans was such a vastly different time span.

I assumed dogs/cats and their saliva/licking was a reason we didn't.