Herd protectors???

[AppyLover2]

My farrier was here yesterday and we were talking about all the dog attacks that have occurred (this year especially). He commented that people are buying wild burros as herd protectors. He said since they live in the wild they will chase/attack/stomp coyotes, wolves, big cats etc.. I immediately thought of you guys who have such horrible attacks and thought I'd pass the information on.

Don't know anything about it except what he said, but thought it was interesting. Anybody have any ideas or have (or know someone who has) wild burros"?

 

[Magic]

I belong to an LGD (Livestock Guardian Dogs) chat, and there is a discussion right now about llamas as protectors. The consensus is, that llamas are still "prey" animals, and there are quite a few that are overwhelmed by packs of dogs or cougars, etc. A coyote or single dog they can handle (IF they are so inclined--not all are driven to "protect" the other animals they are in with) but more than one, or a big cat, or bear, they can't. Now, donkeys do have sharp hooves, which llamas don't, but they are still very vulnerable to attack. Their instinct is going to be to "get away" and survive, not fight, for the most part, if the threat is too much.

A dog, or dogs, on the other hand, aren't prey animals, and they can much more easily convince a predator to move along instead of trying to sample the herd.

Donkeys and llamas DO work, but just keep in mind that not every donkey or llama will be aggressive enough to take on predators, and if they are, they can only handle basically one predator at a time.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

the only scary thing and yes anything "can" happen and more often then not DOESNT happen but there have been LGD who have been with there herd for years all fine and well that turned on those they were protecting. Again doesnt happen often I am sure but some members here have had it happen to them.

 

[Magic]

the only scary thing and yes anything "can" happen and more often then not DOESNT happen but there have been LGD who have been with there herd for years all fine and well that turned on those they were protecting. Again doesnt happen often I am sure but some members here have had it happen to them.

I think that you will find that very rarely is it an actual LGD that attacks its charges. I've only heard of one, ever. Usually when it is an owner's dogs that attack their own horses, it is a non-guarding type of dog, and there are usually more than one, demonstrating "pack behavior". In fact, the one LGD that I've ever heard of attacking its charges was with other, non-LGD dogs, and they ganged up on the horses.

I believe that one should only ever use a dog for guarding that has been bred for such a thing for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. These dogs have been selectively bred for an extremely low "prey drive", with a protective instinct. I know of LGD's that live with flocks of birds, and never harm them, but protect them.

I have a Great Dane who is super with the horses, even the tiny foals, WITH SUPERVISON, but I would NEVER leave her alone with any horses without supervison. Her breeding makes her a superb human companion, and guard dog, but not as a LGD.

 

[stormy]

I had a standard BLM donkey for a while and yes he was extremely protective of the herd. He would roar like a lion and try to stomp strange dogs into the ground. He also had a strange growl that could make your hair stand on end when dogs tried to come in the pen. Took a while to train him the family dogs were OK. I have mini donkeys and a hinny now and though I have not seen them in action the hinny will stand over the new babies in the field and lets me know if someone is missing when I bring the mares in at night.

 

[Davie]

I had the opportunity to get a llama, but I was told they have to work in pairs or even threes--one to take the herd away from the danger and the other 1 or 2 to remove the threat.

On the other hand I'll take my longears any time. I just got my first longear (donkey) and her baby jack in May and I was told that Jennies and gelded Jacks work best. My baby jack is so fun to watch--at a month old he was herding my barn cats either back to the barn where they belonged or out of the pasture all together. He knew they belonged there but he does not want them in his pasture. He gently escorts them out by walking behind them with his nose on the ground and if they don't move fast enough he will give them a nudge with his muzzle.

It is also fun to watch his dam--she will walk the fence line about every hour to 1 1/2 hours to check the area and she takes nothing off any of the horses. When you hear her bray--you had better go see what is going on. She also has an unusual growling noise when she is after something that does not belong in her pasture.

 

[Bess Kelly]

I raised mini donks for several years and loved them!! Not all of them will guard. But, of mine there were only a couple who didn't and even they would "announce" when someone came to the farm. Also having a large herd of Boer goats at the time, the donks were quite helpful in keeping the occassional dog and the fox from the pastures. Ever seen a herd of them attack? :new_shocked: Not even rabbits were allowed in their field. But no issue with the goat kids born there, the foals of the minis or their own, etc.

I did have one jennet who attacked and killed a goat. She was in a field with about 30-40 and another young goat came in from the adjacent field -- she killed it. Was the same type, color, size as others but she knew it was not "hers" . She bothered no others right there with this stray one. Sadly, it was one of the fullbloods and I wanted to really "get her" for this but, she was doing her job...so, I removed the intruder & buried him (they all had ear tags & tatoos for registration). You could only introduce new animals if you removed her from the group, added them and re-intro her a few days later. Only one I had like that! She was a standard sized so never mingled with the other minis or mini horses. But, a better protector you could not have asked for, IMO.

My other donks were fine with the livestock, just no dogs, cats or such strangers. And, oh my, do they "talk" when a person arrives. Some race tracks used to keep a gelding in the barn just for this bray when a person entered.

 

[Minimor]

We tried a llama but he was more trouble than he was worth. (And yes, llamas & even a donkey can be overpowered if attacked by several animals.) With close neighbors I think we'd have complaints if we had a talkative donkey here, and we just don't have enough land for a LGD breed--nor are our fences dog-proof--a LGD would be guarding our neighbors too and that wouldn't go over well.

I agree with what Magic said in her post. It is rare for a LGD to attack its charges--I heard of one, though I don't know the full details, but the dog was giving indications of being a problem & they still kept trying to leave it out with the sheep, and it ended up taking down a sheep. (I've also known of a couple very nasty llamas that would attack the lambs it was supposed to be guarding.) Keep in mind, too, that in one instance the LGD that turned out to be a problem had previously been stomped by horses & was showing a tendency to retaliate. And, like Magic said, if there are other dogs around that associate with the LGD, it becomes more likely there will be a problem; they begin to be a "pack" and if they are hunting other critters (I have a friend that keeps dogs this way & allows them to roam & hunt), it's inviting trouble to allow it to continue.

'

 

[Robin1]

I have Anatolian Shepherds with my horses. The only time they have deliberately scared any of the horses was when one of the mares thought I had a stallion with me (she was a new mother) and she backed up kicking as fast and as hard as she could. :new_shocked: My BIG male charged her barking, growling, and lunged at her face. Not a single hair on her was touched for all his "aggression". He loves his horses but he loves his "mommy" more.

: Saying that, you MUST remember that these are dogs and you have to pay attention to how they are feeling. Are they injured? Are they getting arthritic? Do they have a place they can get away from the horses? All the dogs have a way to get away from the horses, where they can still watch but don't need to worry about getting run over, stomped on, played with, etc. They love the babies but sometimes you just don't want your ear pulled anymore.

:

Now my two oldest ones are 11 yrs old and showing arthritis. They have now moved up to protecting the house and taking it easy in the air conditioning. They deserve it!!!

: The male still wants to come out to the pasture now and then and he can as long as I'm with him (for his protection) or when the horses are put up. The foals that have grown up with him still want to play with him and they don't realize they are now 200 lbs.

:

Burro's can be good guardians, then again I got a call this spring because a husband got up in the morning to find 2 burro's (he thought) out of their pasture. He didn't know that the wife had put a mare and foal out in the pasture. He put the burro's (back in the pasture) and looked up in time to see them tossing the foal like a rag doll. :new_shocked: Both the husband and wife were devastated. The burro's were given to people that had other burro's and are doing well and will never be near mini's again. According to many people that have had dealings with burro's over the years (that I have spoken too) this was NOT a surprise to them.

:

Robin

 

[Lauralee]

Donkeys are peculiar and sometimes tough to manage. We raised miniature donks for a few years. The jack was extremely aggressive about breeding and would rape anything within his height range. My jack was the only one that showed protectiveness towards the herd. Of course, he could not run with the horses as he would rape the mares. The jack would stomp anything smaller than him that trespassed into his pasture. We found dead skunks, possums, geese, turtles.....in his pen. The jennies were kind of "dumb" and both were young. The first time each of them foaled, they attacked their foals, instinctively believing that the foal was an intruder! It took a few hours to get them to accept their own foals. I did some research on this and found that many times the jennies will kill their first foal in this way.

When the jennies were in the pasture with the mares, they were afraid of everything and the least in the pecking order. The jennies did NOT try to protect the herd and they didn't even mingle with the herd. They did NOT chase dogs or small critters. They simply ran from anything that scared them.

Later on we gelded the jack and gradually introduced him to the mare pasture as a gelding. He no longer had the breeding drive, and he was a fairly good herd protector as a gelding. Still, as a gelding, there were times that he overlooked a dog intruder to his field, though, I guess because he was now gelded.

Now we have Anatolian Shepherds. Zeus is 170 pounds, neutered male. Hera is a much smaller female puppy, and she is 75% Anatolian/25% Pyrenees. Hera is about 7 months old, and already showing excellent guarding traits.

Our property is completely fenced with cattle panels to keep our dogs inside, and other dogs outside. However, if one should intend to dig under and trespass onto our property, Zeus is ready and waiting to rip them apart.

Here are some pictures of my Anatolians in action:

 

[Cronewolf]

:new_shocked: True the dogs re not prey, however a growing no. of these actaks are coming from the dogs that are there to protect the herds. Also even a good dog can and sometimes is over-come by a pack and killed themselves. I don't know the answer except really great fences and lots of light.

I belong to an LGD (Livestock Guardian Dogs) chat, and there is a discussion right now about llamas as protectors. The consensus is, that llamas are still "prey" animals, and there are quite a few that are overwhelmed by packs of dogs or cougars, etc. A coyote or single dog they can handle (IF they are so inclined--not all are driven to "protect" the other animals they are in with) but more than one, or a big cat, or bear, they can't. Now, donkeys do have sharp hooves, which llamas don't, but they are still very vulnerable to attack. Their instinct is going to be to "get away" and survive, not fight, for the most part, if the threat is too much.

A dog, or dogs, on the other hand, aren't prey animals, and they can much more easily convince a predator to move along instead of trying to sample the herd.

Donkeys and llamas DO work, but just keep in mind that not every donkey or llama will be aggressive enough to take on predators, and if they are, they can only handle basically one predator at a time.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Cronewolf that is what I was trying to say. Of course with anything alot depends on the breeder. Are you dealing with a breeder who realizes not every pup in the litter is top of the line... not every pup in the litter is truly going to be meant to be a LGD as opposed to a pet despite its breed

Will the breeder notice any agressive tendencies in a pup, do they really spend time evaluating the dogs to know what pup will best fit in what situation. Will they be honest with themselves as well as you to say this isnt the one for a LGD

Do they really inform the new owners of the fencing issues that these dogs have or let them figure it out on there own? Dogs that can roam tend to be a bit more agressive as they take over more of the neighborhood as there own property and arent always as accepting of the rightful owners animals and dogs as belonging there.

The more popular these dogs become (and they are becoming much more mainstream) of course the more people will be breeding them many without the knowledge to truly do so and maintain the working lines. Which is why I believe personally that we are hearing of more of these dogs turning on the very herds they have been protecting. And yes good fencing, light and cameras around your property can only help

Dont get me wrong we had a Pyr here for a bit as we fostered him and he was a WONDERFUL dog very kind gentle and easy going I loved him but we didnt have the proper fencing to keep him. He was fine with our dogs, cats and kids but wasnt allowed with the horses as we obviously didnt have him his whole life and know his background. If I had proper fencing I would consider getting another one but dogs like people are each there own individuals and while yes they should have breed traits should doesnt always mean do.