I'm interested in hearing it from both sides

[Suzie]

Here we usually have the vet come out when our foals are 4 months old and do a Coggins on all we plan to sell. The vet here charges a farm visit fee plus the Coggins. Health certificates requested on horses are optional in our state and this requires us to either pay another farm visit fee or we have to load up the horse (take a day off from work) and drive to the vet in another county. This can get expensive. As sellers we have had people ask us for a new Coggins and a heath certificate and then back out of buying at the last minute. We just can't afford to bear all the costs for a horse selling for less than $1000 here. All our horses come with a medical record from us and papers in hand. Asking for reimbursement on Coggins and health certificate is not a big deal for a nice horse under $1000 in my opinion.

 

[georgiegirl]

JMHO The coggins and health certificate should be purchased at the same time a pre purchase exam is performed. I personally would have that done regardless if the horse was costing $20. There is no sense in purchasing a horse that you have to spend hundreds of dollars on for health related problems. Something I have learned the hard way. Free or cheap isnt always free or cheap.

I think the seller of the horse should provide all the shot records, farrier work records, and any illness records to the purchaser. That should not be hard if they keep up with their animals.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

The only time I don't care if they have coggins or health papers is if I am picking up a horse thats local. However, if its out of my region then yes I appreciate coggins and health papers and I really think the seller should be responsible for that.

I sell my horses with coggins and health papers. That just looks more professional to me. I'm sorry that other places are really expensive, but isn't that just a regular expense in keeping horses? Their should be no hidden fees, if you want to be paid for coggins and health papers add it on to the price of the horse.

 

[whitney]

I think coggins/health papers are sellers costs. Also provides seller with piece of mind that they are selling a healthy horse.

 

[Windhaven]

Well I think it should be provided by the seller. But I can understand if the horse is priced real low and it cost $200 or more to get a coggins and health certificate than there would be a question on who pays for it. I guess it all boils down to if the seller really wants to sell and the buyer really likes the horse. I personally would take care of it as a seller because it is less hassle and good business ethics.

But I do know a BIG farm that makes all buyers pay for the coggins and health certificate and anything else that is done to the horse once the purchase contract is signed. These are not cheap horses ($5000 and up most of them) either. When I purchased my first horse from this farm and received the vet bill for the coggins and health certificate, I was stunned.

 

[Riverdance]

I have had it both ways. I have bought VERY expensive horses and had to pay for coggins and health certificates and I have bought less expensive and did not have to pay for any of it.

I will have to agree with Kitty. Typically you have at least $100 into the health and coggins, sometimes $200. If I am selling a horse for less than $1,500, $200 is a big chunk of change. Over $1,500 I pay for the health certificate and Coggins, but I have to ask---

In the dog world I always expect my buyer to pay for health certificates and the crate. Some dogs go for a lot less than horses, and it is common for the buyer to pay the bill. Also, the health certificate is only $55 for a dog. I sell my dogs for $1,500 to $2,500, more than many of the horses that are sold today, and yet the buyer still pays the health certificate. I wonder why horse people expect the seller to foot the bill?

 

[Katiean]

I have been told that here it is $40 for a coggens and $25 for a health cert. I think when I brought my Missy from CA it was $5 for the coggens and $25 for the health cert. Yes sellers should provide it unless the horse is $500 or less.

 

[wildoak]

As already stated, a negative Coggins is required in Texas. Nontheless, I have bought a few horses here without Coggins - owners either didn't know or didn't care. Health certificates are not required within the state, and frankly I think are a waste of money anyway. If you want to assess the horse's health and condition, get a pre-purchase exam done. Health certificate doesn't tell you much. I concur with the argument that a Coggins isn't much protection either, but since you are dealing with a deadly disease and it's the best protection we currently have.......better safe than sorry.

I do provide buyers too with all the health records I have on my horses - vaccinations, deworming, feeding information (and a few days worth of feed if they will be changing)..in short, everything I can do to make the transition easier for horse and buyer. I've bought horses at sales with zero information and I find it frustrating to bring a new horse home and just hope for the best!

Horses are also required to have a halter & lead provided with the sale in Texas, but lots of them don't. Another case of "who knew..."

Jan

 

[JewelsOK]

As a buyer/owner who has to board, I can't bring a horse onto the property without a negative coggins test and I have to submit a new one every twelve months. My current barn does not require proof of current vaccines, but another place I have boarded at did. I think it is really the responsibility of the seller. I know the few times I have parted with a horse, it had a current coggins (but again, it had to anyway because it was required at the boarding stable).

 

[faithfarm]

The way I look at it, Coggins and Health Papers are shipping costs; the cost of the horse is the cost of the horse. If the buyer wants a prepurchase exam, that is also their responsibility. That being said, many times I do supply the Coggins and Health Papers, especially to people who don't try to beat me up on the price of the horse. I sell pets for $500 or less with no papers (unless gelded), Coggins or Health Papers, these are always local purchases and the buyer picks them up or I deliver for a fee. I hope that doesn't make me a bad seller, because what I do offer is free advice for life and have been on many late night/early morning dystocia calls. I think it is far more important to represent horses honestly and mentor buyers than to worry about who pays for the Coggins. The Coggins will expire in a year buy the ugly horse lasts a really long time.

 

[HGFarm]

I do not think that not providing a health and coggins on a horse that sells for a few hundred bucks makes the person a 'bad seller' at ALL. Due to the time off work to be home when the vet comes, the price of getting it done, etc... I dont think I should foot the bill on a horse that sells for $600.00.

I offer free board for 30 days, or until shipping can be made within a time close to that- if it is five days over, I am not going to gripe about that. I also provide any health care info needed to the new owners and anything else they might want to know.

Not only that, but I was told that the coggins test actually belongs to who ever pays for it. If I pay for the coggins test, no matter what the price of the horse, that test is MINE legally. If the new owner takes the horse, but wants to show in another state in a month or two, or is moving or hauling that horse for any reason, they have to legally repurchase another coggins from their own vet and have the test done again, whether the one I paid for has expired or not. They cannot use the test that they purchased the horse with, for their own purpose for later use!! So it really is to the buyer's benefit if they plan on hauling at all, to purchase the coggins anyway.

I just dont understand why not providing these would make someone a bad seller... ??? Over the last few years, when you buy a new car, you dont get a real spare tire with it- you have to 'buy' one, or you get one of the stupid 'donuts' for emergency use. It USED to be standard that you got a spare tire. In today's economy, why would someone selling a two year old horse for, say, only $600.00 want to take another $200 loss on the vet paperwork as well? This is after paying a stud fee, feeding it for two years, etc..... I see at least one farm that advertises that doesnt offer any health etc.. papers on ANY horse they sell, regardless of the price.

If you have a pre purchase exam done on a horse, the buyer pays for that, so why would they not also pay for the health inspection and coggins should they decide to make the purchase? When did it become a 'rule' that this HAS to be provided by the seller?

To me, if the buyer is purchasing a horse for under $1000, and they can't afford the coggins/health papers, then I am not sure I would want them purchasing one of my horses because I am going to wonder if proper health care and feed can be provided. I think it should be the seller's preference of what they do and dont want to provide as far as travel papers, but it is just common courtesy to provide health records.

Just edited to note- I envy those whose coggins, etc. only cost a few bucks. They are not cheap, plus the call to have the vet out on top of it.

Within the state of AZ here, we are not required to have a coggins or health paper, but any out of state travel, or horses coming in MUST have one. I dont know anyone who hauls livestock for a living that will do so without proper paperwork on the animals.

I also agree that the whole coggins thing is a farce, and yes, a huge money maker for others- not the horse owners! Thousands upon thousands of horses were put to sleep, simply for showing positive (antibodies) to the disease- ask your state vets how many horses have really ever DIED from this disease!!!! Reminds me of the 'bird flu' scare........... And exactly, there is nothing to assure that that horse is not going to get it a month later.

 

[Leeana]

I offer health papers and coggins on all out of state horses, i do not provide them if they are sold in ohio. No matter the cost.

For me...the total health paper coggin $ break down is.

Farm Call (for vet to pull blood) = $45

Coggins = $20

Health Papers = $15

That is a total of $80 ....i guess some people see that $80 as a loss if they are only making a profit for $1000. I have no problem paying for coggins / health papers on horses i purchase, all farms have different terms...its no different then going to buy a car ext, they all have their own terms to follow.

 

[wildoak]

The Coggins will expire in a year buy the ugly horse lasts a really long time.

Very true LOL.

It is Texas law - although I realize not the case everywhere - and I have just always assumed it is my responsibility as a seller to provide the Coggins. It is usually a minor expense though, and in my mind should not make or break a sale on either side. Lots more expensive things involved than a $25 test.

Here's another wrinkle though - suppose you, as a buyer, purchase a horse and immediately have a Coggins pulled, which comes back POSITIVE. What do you think the seller's liability should be in this case?

Jan

 

[txminipinto]

Texas law states that any and all equines housed within 200 yards of another equine must have annual coggins testing. This law is extremely difficult to police and enforce. It is also stated that the individual transfering ownership (now, I don't know if this means seller or buyer) is responsible for the test.

 

[albahurst]

I provide Coggins and Health papers here- just think it is a good business practice.

Peggy

 

[HGFarm]

LOL, Jan, that's a whole new situation.

If the buyer has the coggins done, which HAS to be done before the horse is moved anyhow, and it were to come back positive, if they have paid for the horse, they should get the option of a refund or a farm credit of equal value on another.... however the sellers farm handles that.

Any horse can come back positive, regardless of who pays for the test, but I would be horrified if I had one come back positive (never have had one) and would never expect a buyer to be out the horse and the money.... However, some folks think that once the horse is sold, it's sold, and the buyer takes all responsibility, but if the test is positive, IMO, the horse cannot be used for whatever it was intended for... whether a pet, show horse, breeding animal or.... and it's just something that nobody would have had any idea on- neither the buyer or seller's fault. But I think that would be the ethical thing to do.

But this can open a whole can of worms.... what if you sold a horse, that was paid for, had passed it's coggins, and while waiting 3 weeks for the shipper to come- you walk out in the a.m. and find the horse dead as a doornail for some reason? Then what? The horse was sold 3 weeks earlier.... and had the horse shipped the day before, or the first week or whatever, it would have been housed at the buyers place.... so who is responsible? Here, it used to be when we sold one of the ranch horses, etc.... when the buyer loaded it in their trailer, it was their responsibility, but they were local to pick it up right away, not wait for a shipper.

There are a lot of 'what if' scenarios out there...........

 

[HGFarm]

Oops, double post some how, sorry...........

 

[vvf]

But this can open a whole can of worms.... what if you sold a horse, that was paid for, had passed it's coggins, and while waiting 3 weeks for the shipper to come- you walk out in the a.m. and find the horse dead as a doornail for some reason? Then what? The horse was sold 3 weeks earlier.... and had the horse shipped the day before, or the first week or whatever, it would have been housed at the buyers place.... so who is responsible? Here, it used to be when we sold one of the ranch horses, etc.... when the buyer loaded it in their trailer, it was their responsibility, but they were local to pick it up right away, not wait for a shipper.

There are a lot of 'what if' scenarios out there...........

I think in this day and age of selling over the internet. It should be the sellers responsibly to fully disclose everything about a horse.

It’s one thing to have a buyer that lives 10- 100 miles from me, drive to our place and physically look at our horses. If they like a horse and decide to buy it, they don’t need to wait for a shipper. They could load the horse and go.

But it’s quite another to sell our horse to someone across that country that is looking at pictures and taking my word on said horse.

Those long distance buyers are putting their trust in me.

And in that scenario,……… if I had a horse that I sold and it was paid for 3 weeks prior, that was healthy as can be, but just laid down and died before it was shipped to it’s new home… Well, the buyer would get a full refund, without a doubt.

.

Of course when I sell a horse, I prefer it to ship within a reasonable amount of time. But I know from experience that that is not always possible. Shippers sometimes change their schedules, etc.

I just feel that if I want to use the internet to advertise and sell my horses to folks from great distances away…It is my responsibility to treat them the way I would like to be treated.

Otherwise, I might as well toss my computer out the window.

 

[jleonard]

I do not sell horses on a regular basis, nor do I have a large herd, but personally I would never let a horse leave my property without a negative coggins. All of our horses have a coggins drawn in the spring, and those that will be leaving for shows, etc, have health certs drawn up. I would never sell a horse without both, however, I have bought them without either. I hate to do it, not only do I think it is dangerous to bring a new horse in with out a neg coggins, but I also stress about hauling a horse w/o a health cert, they are very strict on that in Kentucky, and you must have an instate to haul your horse. I do think that it is the seller's responsibility to make sure that they are not selling a sick horse, but it is the buyer's responsibility to make sure that the seller provides the appropriate paper work. As others have said, it is just good business.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

But this can open a whole can of worms.... what if you sold a horse, that was paid for, had passed it's coggins, and while waiting 3 weeks for the shipper to come- you walk out in the a.m. and find the horse dead as a doornail for some reason? There are a lot of 'what if' scenarios out there...........

There is a well-known farm that sells lots of horses - not hundreds a year, but ten to twenty I'd guess - and their contract states that you owe "whether the horse lives or dies." So, in your scenario, this breeder expects that you either won't get your money back or and/or you still need to make the rest of the payments to them even if the horse died before it leaves their property.

I'd expect that if I bought a horse on payments, had the horse transported to my farm and THEN it dies, I still need to make the rest of the payments. That's the horse business folks, IMO. But, even thought I've bought from this farm, I'm not sure where I stand on this now. I'd be inclined not to buy on a contract with this clause in the future. I guess each circumstance is different. I'd have a hard time expecting someone to make payments to me on a horse that died before it even left my care. Now, if someone was making payments to me on a high-dollar horse, I'd strongly encourage them to buy insurance on it even before it leaves my care. THEN if they don't, I may feel stronger about collecting my "due." Just my 2 cents.