Just how much is color worth!?

[targetsmom]

I'll chip in again and try to answer some questions. A good point was made about breeding to another type of HOMOZYGOUS Pinto. If you bred that LWO+ overo mare to a homozygous Tobiano stallion (tested negative for LWO just to be completely safe) you would have a 100% chance of a colored foal. Way to go!! We are breeding our LWO+ (solid looking) mare next week to a Tobiano pinto LWO negative stallion (but not homozygous) and I think our chances of getting a colored foal are better than 50%, with 0% of a lethal white. I'll take those odds. Now we might get a Tobiano or Tovero foal, but we only care about being able to register it as a pinto so we can show in the Pinto Shows in our area. We don't care if it is flashy - healthy would be fine.

I won't try to go into detail about what LWO is other than to say it stand for Lethal White Overo, and is an issue with pinto frame overo horses of any size. Frame overo is one of the common pinto color patterns and looks a bit like irregular white patches, "framed" in a dark background. Some horse that are genetically frame overo appear solid but usually (always?) have facial white and may have blue eyes. If you breed 2 horses together that are positive for the frame overo gene (LWO+) then you have a 25% changce of getting a "lethal white foal" which will die in 3 days due to intestinal problems. And you still only have a 50% chance of getting a frame overo. Very brief and I hope I didn't leave out anything important. Testing can be done for $25 and is worth every penny!

 

[keeperofthehorses]

I can also vouch for him, he's very nice , very caring person and I have bought several nice mini's from him.

"Any one can make an ordinary solid boring colored foal, but producing an extraordinary loud colored beautiful overo frame overo baby is a task.

In my eyes its not worth feeding the mare a calender year for a solid foal that is next to worthless in todays market." T. Charles

This genius thinks a 50% chance of frame from + to + is better than a 50% chance of frame from + to -? And a dead foal is better than a solid foal? Solid is 'ordinary and boring', 'next to worthless'? Solid is worth more than dead my friend. This is the kind of attitude that gives all breeders a bad name. Not to mention the foal that suffers just to stroke his ego, and the mare that suffers the stress of losing a baby. Caring? Afraid not. A caring person would not call a foal 'worthless'. :no: A task? For whom? You, or the mare and baby? These are living creatures you are dealing with, not model airplanes. I have several friends in the APHA world that would be sickened by this, as am I.

BTW, the wildest frame I ever saw was out of a solid/neg APHA Breeding Stock mare (with to-die-for conformation). That old story that the markings are better/louder in + to + breedings was debunked decades ago.

 

[Feather1414]

Not sure if I am actually allowed to ask this, but I will anyways. This is JUST a question, I mean no harm by it and if you by any chance know Lisa from LTD, please do send her to my post on this thread because I don't know too much about the LWO gene and I know she works a lot with frame overos.

When you are working with your stallion Magic Man, do you breed to other fram overo's to get another frame from him?

Do you risk the lethal foal in your breeding program?

How do you plan on producing frame overo's from your herd?

If these questions made ANY real sense, I truly would like to know the answers.

If a moderator feels its inappropriate, feel free to delete it.

Like I said before, I don't want to cause any trouble.

I have always considered breeding for frame overo's like Lisa produces, and I would like to know more about the breeding program.

 

[nootka]

As I stated in another thread, I could give a rat's behind about a horse with outstanding color if it's shaped badly, has off proportions and problems w/conformation, poor health, etc. My main focus is on correctness and overall beauty and proportionate build (as close as possible).

As a result, my herd is "boring" and solid at this point. Easy enough to add color. To me, it's the other way around, "anyone can breed an excitingly colored horse, but it takes true dedication to breed the best built and most beautifully conformed horse. Color is just icing"

When I saw this quote:

In my eyes its not worth feeding the mare a calender year for a solid foal that is next to worthless in todays market."

I just said to myself "friggin' wow..." No words can explain the frustration with this attitude.

I never had a clue as to who this person was, where they are advertising or anything about them. I didn't care! All I was interested in was the discussion that ensued. I didn't know the odds were the same for LWO neg X LWO pos as LWO pos X LWO pos (not that it matters to me, I WOULD NEVER cross LWO to LWO for ANY reason. SORRY!). I do now.

What I also do know is that there is someone out there who chose to "defend" themselves for their greed and ignorance.

*shrugs*

I've sold my boring, solid foals for far more than my wildly marked ones, just for reference, though I will add that my wildly marked horses were less beautifully shaped as a rule. There are some amazing solid colors out there....adding "chrome" isn't all that difficult.

Yikes....I am SHOCKED, to put it mildly, but not overly surprised, sadly.

Liz M.

 

[DebiM]

Lots of good points made and an educational thread. I understand the problem some may have abt a thread picking apart someone's ad but I for one would never have gone to see who posted it. I found out WHO posted the ad by this thread so that's who turned it personal, not the original poster.

I wanted to add one thing abt his suggestion of a "worthless" solid foal. I would think that means he hasn't been to many shows lately, especially not World or Nationals. There are outstanding solid horses winning left and right in the show ring against some VERY loud colored horses. You produce an awesome foal and it's going to sell at your price whether it be solid or pinto.

Debi

 

[wildoak]

It's certainly not worth the risk to me to cross LWO on LWO. We had the opportunity this year to breed our APHA mare who is LWO to a really nice LWO stallion. We found another stallion, just couldn't take the chance. A friend had an interesting situation recently - her QH mare, bred to another QH, had a solid (not white) foal with a little facial white, who died within 24 hours with an incomplete colon.

Jan

 

[lil hoofbeats]

I have know an old breeder, who is now deceased, who bred LWO to LWO alot. In fact he was in SOuth Carolina, and had several of the Miller's horses as stallions. I know that out of about 150 or so babies that he produced a year at his farm, he only had maybe one or 2 Lethal babies a year born.(according to him) That leads me to believe that the chances are less than 25% of getting a lethal baby, regardless of what the "book" says.

 

[Minimor]

lil hoofbeats--the odds ARE 25%. The person you know may have had only 10% (or whatever, I don't know what percentage 1 or 2 LWO foals a year was for him/her) LWO foals, but the next person that tries it could end up having 50% LWO foals. Basically each foal born to that cross has a 25% chance of being lethal white, but that's not saying that 1 out of every 4 is going to be lethal--you might have a year where you get none, you could have a year where you had 4!

Just like trying to get colored foals from a palomino stallion. Theoretically he will have 50% colored foals, but sometimes the breeder gets 90% color, and sometimes only 10% color. The chance of any foal being colored is still 50%!

 

[Mona]

I have know an old breeder, who is now deceased, who bred LWO to LWO alot. In fact he was in SOuth Carolina, and had several of the Miller's horses as stallions. I know that out of about 150 or so babies that he produced a year at his farm, he only had maybe one or 2 Lethal babies a year born.(according to him) That leads me to believe that the chances are less than 25% of getting a lethal baby, regardless of what the "book" says.

What you and the original person in question seem to fail to see, is that although these people are breeding overo to overo, it is not always LWO+ to LWO+. There are 3 patterns involved with what we refer to as "overo"....sabino, splashed white, and frame. Some horses LOOK one pattern, but may also carry other pattern genes as well. Some may look/resemble frame, yet may actually be sabino. Sabino can quite easily mimic frame at times, depending on the color distribution pattern on the horse! So they may say they are breeding overo to overo, but overo to overo does not automatically make it LWO+ to LWO+! That breeder you are referring to, also had a lot of splashed whites in his herd, and Millers also have all the overo patterns, not just frames, as did Mylers/VanLos.

 

[nootka]

The big "deal" here to me is that the person doesn't even care to learn that there is no advantage to taking this risk (LWO X LWO). They are not increasing their odds, only increasing the odds that their horses will suffer. I cannot imagine the sadness of having to put down a mare's baby just when she wants it most, nor can I imagine having to tell that little life that it can't stay b/c of human error (yeah, sometimes people don't know, but it's obvious this one does).

The attitude of "worthlessness" based on color alone is extremely disturbing, too. What about some of the most influential horses in the breed. Barring Orion Light, many of them have been solids, and many of THEM have colorful offspring. Rowdy, for example, may well have been taken for a solid....? Yet some of the most colorful overos have come along that line, also beautifully made horses no matter what the color.

It wouldn't even matter to me about increasing the risk of color. I would not be able to risk such an awful experience (not even 10%) just for COLOR. If I had to do that to get sales, I would not be in business selling Miniature horses (which I am not, but if I chose to do so as a business, that would not happen).

Liz M.