Nationals

[funnybunny]

I saw a lot of beautiful Shetlands in halter. They looked great standing there. They looked good moving from the side. But OMG, watching them move towards you or back, they looked like egg beaters. Legs were flying everywhichway.

In the driving classes, I was not in a position to watch movement coming and going. Most of the Shetlands have lots of action and drive and that was great to watch.

It seems to me that if you're going to put Shetlands back in your Mini breeding program, it would be wise to watch out for movement in front and rear that they might produce. Most minis shown in halter have pretty good or excellent movement. We cannot afford to borrow trouble with movement. JMHO>

I also saw driving horses rearing up while lined up. They were at the far end and I don't believe the judges saw any of that.

 

[Echo Acres]

I have to comment on two things that were said...

As for a horse not winning because its up against ponies, BS the best horse will win. My suggestion is to step back and take a good look at your horse and make sure you really are not just being barn blind.

This was in regards to what I posted on our mare. Yes to some extent I am sure I am barn blind. But I don't feel that she is nice enough to win all the time, and yes she has competed against very nice miniatures and lost...I don't have a problem with that. It is when she is not the "pony" type that gets me. We have had many big breeders say they would love to own her. We even had a person who was an AMHA breeder only want to buy her (she is 36" and AMHR only).

Kathey... your buckskin stallion is pretty darn cute from that picture! However, if the class is not divided down, a taller horse usually places because they generally have a lot more leg, and thus are more "horselike" (most riding horses don't have short legs compared to their bodies, and that is what we are going for in the minis). It's hard to tell from the angle of that picture though.

You see this is one issue I have a problem with. If the horse is balanced correctly according to the rule book on what the "ideal" mini should look then the SMALLER horse should win!!! I was told by a judge that the rule book no longer says that, but it still does. Yet time after time if you have 2 equal quality horses in the ring, the bigger one will win.

I am not totally putting down the shetland. I love some of their movement and beauty and seen some really nice ones at nationals. I just think there is a time and place for them.

 

[disneyhorse]

Funnybunny... I actually think most Shetlands move better than most minis (halter ones). The Shetland is judged VERY heavily on movement, whereas the miniature is judged more heavily on conformation. This is because the Shetland pony must "work the rail" in EVERY halter class they are in, from beginning to Jr/Sr to Grand. The judge will watch the pony walk and trot towards and away, and along the rail collected with a tailer. The miniature only sort of walks in and trots in an "L" briefly before lining up and the judge already has the next mini coming in.

I don't believe that Shetlands all track wrong in movement... that is a weird generalization to make. Perhaps because they move more extreme than a shuffling mini (how many people REALLY trot out their minis?) you notice it a little bit more?

Andrea

 

[Minimor]

The miniature only sort of walks in and trots in an "L" briefly before lining up and the judge already has the next mini coming in.

And that is a complaint I have about many Mini judges. If the class requirement is for the horse to be trotted in an "L" away from the judges and around the end of the ring, then the judges should be watching the horse as it trots around the end of the ring. Movement SHOULD count, and judges SHOULD be watching that horse move from the side. As I see it if there are two horses with equal conformation, but one is a mover and the other one isn't....the mover should place above the other one. I don't believe that most of the judges would have a clue which one was the better mover, because most judges don't watch enough of the trot to know. Yes, a few do, but from what I have seen, most don't.

 

[Boinky]

LOl one of those horses that 'totally bolted" was one i was driving.. she tweaked out over nothing in general.. i did ask to be excused but we wonder now if we'd have placed higher if we had continued on after seeing some of the others that was lumped in your 'totally bolted, flipped, ran into wall" group..LOL.... first thing I said was 'well the judge's certainly noticed us' LOL not really funny but it is...

 

[Echo Acres]

Yep, maybe you should have stayed in. j/k The one night I was heading for a friend. Her horse broke. When she went to pull back the rein came off the bridle. She tried slowing him down with one rein and ended up bumping the wall. After all said and done she placed 6th. She could not believe it. Then a couple classes later a horse reared up, caused another horse to rear and another to stop (and yes the judges saw) and this horse took reserve. We came to the conclusion you need to make a scene I guess. Pretty sad. Boinky you did the right thing, it can happen to anyone and it is for safety.

 

[bingo]

While of course Shetlands do work the rail they are judged on movement on the profile not so much tracking straight at the trot.

I have seen some ponies do what I have always called paddling when watching them from the front or back and not really track straight however they look amazing moving on the rail in profile. Especially if they have had aids used on them it really changes the tracking straight.

Minis are judged at the trot to see if they are tracking straight.

I also saw some horses break and canter the rail the entire class (not Roadster) and come out winning I did not understand but a show is always filled with things we do not always understand *unless of course we are the ones who won* lol in that case we usually understand all we need to!

 

[Minimor]

I also saw some horses break and canter the rail the entire class (not Roadster) and come out winning I did not understand but a show is always filled with things we do not always understand *unless of course we are the ones who won* lol in that case we usually understand all we need to!

This is quite true, though I have to say that there have been enough times when the winner came out of a class with an amazed expression--absolutely astounded that he/she won because his/her horse had made some major goof and the handler thought that goof would put their horse out of the placings.
I would point out, too, that "politics" can work either for or against a person. Once I was in a class where the judge was a friend of the family...and best friends with the owner of the horse I was showing. That judge never took her eyes off of me. I may as well have been the only horse in the class, because she never looked at anyone else....until I made a little mistake (and it was a very little one). From that point on she never looked at me again & I did not place. She was watching me because she knew me and she knew my horse....some would have said it wasn't fair, and I have to agree...because had she not been watching me the entire time she would never have noticed my little mistake and I probably would have done well. Had she not known me or my horse we might have won. Conversely, in another show I was in a class where the judge watched another entry the entire time. He never took his eyes off her, and I thought he must really like her--I fully expected her to win the class. Imagine my surprise when he pinned me first. He hadn't even looked at me. I'm sure my horse could have been doing cartwheels & he wouldn't have noticed us. I still don't know how a judge can place a horse he never looked at, but obviously it happened--he must have made his decision as soon as we came into the ring, and after that it didn't matter to him what the class looked like. He was watching the one horse that caught his attention for whatever reason--good or bad. I honestly believe that sometimes when a horse acts up and still wins...it's entirely possible that the judge just never saw the horse misbehave. Granted, it's a little harder when there are multiple judges and the score is averaged, but it can happen.

 

[Yaddax3]

There is a reason some of us prefer Jumper to anything else. It is the only class you can minimize the judges' impact. Generally, the stopwatch decides the winner, not the judges.

 

[funnybunny]

Disneyhorse, I did not make the generalization that all Shetlands track wrong in movement. I know what I saw, and I am a movement nut. Some beautiful Shetlands at the show had flashy movement, but it was not parallel movement by any means when seen from front and rear. It was flashy from the side with knee action and drive. I stand by what I observed. By the way, Disney, the photo in your avatar is very lovely.

FB

 

[Donna]

I do not think this thread is of any new news to anyone. The barns were full of chatter and speculations about what was going on this year as well as previous years. I agree that there appears to have been some kind of political pattern. I did not always agree with the end results either. There were horses-people that I felt certainly got the shaft and others that I feel should not have had the placings that they got. Its a horse show. I can say that what I saw and others saw this year was not a positive reflection on some people and it certainly showed when some winners silented the whole arena and others got a standing ovation.

I have witnessed in the many years that we have shown, horses being placed according to their handler. You can't change it , there is no need in trying. The only thing you can do is to get involved with your club and research your judges and hire those that you feel will give everyone an honest shake on their horse. I for one had a real problem with the fact that AMHR hired the same judge for the Congress and AMHR Nationals. I am not saying that this judge was showing favortism, I am just saying that The Journal list all the judges from all over the United States and they could only find one judge to work both shows, Hello? We also inquired at Nationals as to how the National judges were picked and we got three differant answers from three differant people.

One of which told us that a form was mailed out and you write in judges of your choice and the list is then narrowed down by number of nominations. Well, we have gotten this letter for Futurity Judge, but I do not recall any such letter for open and so on. Why cant they just simply print the form in the Jounal as they do the Futurity forms? Let all the members nominate.

I also had a problem with the fact that the trainers, also holding Judges Cards work so closely together all year long. All the trainers are going after their judges cards and I for one have heard on several occassions that "You scratch my back I'll scratch Yours" policy comes into play allot in this industry. I might add that I have also heard it is the same way in the dog showing industry as well as any competitive sport. So sad! Do you actually think a Trainer-Judge is going to place another Trainer-Judge lower in placings than someone that is below that status? I for one think not.

My stallion showed in the Junior Stallions Over class and we got Reserve Champion. I have to say that in THIS class I agreed with the judges. If I had gotten anything less, I would have been quite dissapointed. The horse that won was certainly a very nice horse and well deserving of his placing. One that I agreed should have gotten First above mine. Had I put my horse with a certain person to gain that place and knowingly beat a horse that I knew was more desserving would not have given me Joy but taken away from my Joy, especially when so many others could plainly see that my horse was less than adequate.

I did have my stallion with a trainer ( ED SISK ) of Blue Ribbon Training Center. Ed and Valerie has done a wonderful job with Swirl . The horse was conditioned and much more well behaved and trained than I myself could have done. A stallion in his terrible two's and I just do not mix well.

We also had other horses that we showed ourselves.

Convention is coming up soon, it will be interesting to hear who has been picked for 2009 National Judges, or rumor has it the judges have already been determined, is this true? Who are they? Anyone know?

 

[Karen S]

Good Morning,

For those of you that don't understand the picking of our judges, first I would like for you to go to the rulebook or the one on line (Pages 73, 74, 75, 76, 77). Please read about the judges and how they are rotated. Then the AMHR/ASPC/ASPR Committee's send letters out to their committee members asking them to field people in their areas wanting to know what judges they would like to see for the next year. Those names are turned back into the committee chairs and researched, first to see if they qualify (if they have met their judges requirments for renewing their license each year), if they want to judge a National show and if they hold a card for that catagory. Then all of those names are submitted to the BOD and Lenard to see "Who" will accept a contract. Yes, there will be years where some of those same judges will come back to judge either the AMHR Nationals, Congress or even Worlds. Then they will be announced at convention.

Again, many have said it here many many times, get involved in your area, learn about the judges and the type of judge cards they hold. A quarter horse judge is going to pick quarter horse type over an arabian type, and visa versa. Just like a judge holding a judges card with the Pinto or Paint are going more the color horses over a solid horse (yes, I know all other factors should be there too).

Your Committee Chairs:

AMHR:

Larry Parnell

ASPC:

Belinda Bagby

ASPR:

Mary Wahl

Moderns:

Fran Eperthener

Modern Pleasure:

Roger Daulton

You can contact these committee chairs regarding the judges and any questions you may have about those judges that are canvessed for the National shows. Again, communicate don't be afraid to ask questions if you don't understand but don't keep talking about how bad things are and then sit back and don't get involve, learn all you can for someday it may fall on YOU to take care of things.

Karen

 

[Fred]

It is too late to put this proposal in this year but I really feel that if a judge is a trainer then they should not be allowed to judge shows with the judges that are chosen for nationals during that national year. I truly feel this is a serious conflict of interest and should be addressed. Also some of those horses that won were catch handled by a particular trainer and I know of a couple that won that weren't in the best of condition. I have been active and involved in trying to get things in my area with the judging and I do feel that this year was an interesting year. I was fortunate to be able to attend nationals due to some great hearted people in our organization who made this possible. I love the ASPC/AMHR know my directors and try to attend our area meetings each time even though sometimes its a 10 hour drive. I heard the grumbling at the show and sad to say what I saw I agree with some of it. The national show is a great show and the registry is a great registry but it still has problems. Linda

 

[LaVern]

I could not stay away from this one. I feel the Shetland influence is here to stay. And it is good,I think, because those people have to pay double and it brings more money in.

But what I find funny is that, the Shetland breeders and trainers and judges have been fighting for as long as I can remember about what a Shetland Pony is supposed to look like and now they are determining what the miniatures are supposed to look like through Pony trained judges. And I guess their opinion is as good as the next guy. We don't have a type. It is just how tall they are.

The other thing I think is funny, is how the Shetland people like to take credit for our beautiful miniatures, saying that they call came from Shetlands. Mabe they did. Or maybe it was the Big Bang Thing.

I say prove it. Heck, if you dug them and their parents up, I bet alot of them wouldn't even be who it says they are on there papers.

The Full Blooded Miniature Horse, means many generations that can be backed up and proven through parent qualification.

 

[bingo]

rs. The Full Blooded Miniature Horse, means many generations that can be backed up and proven through parent qualification.

Well then that would take out a huge amount of your AMHR horses. First off there is no PQ and truth is we all know that besides hardshipping which was allowed until recently that just as many misleading parents on AMHR papers as ASPC. Lets not forget that some AMHA horses have pedigree issues as well.

To say you have a full blooded miniature horse is the same as saying you have a full blooded cockapoo

Yes it might come from a cocker and a poodle however that does not make it full blooded.

 

[LaVern]

Oh, I was not talking about anyone elses horses. Just my own ,and they are Full of Blood and I know who's it is. But really, you can work yourself up to full bloods in some livestock breeds.

I think it sounds so good (Full Bloods)and heck after I am gone for 25 years or so, someone might come along and think I acually knew what I was talking about.

 

[LaVern]

Kind of like the name Thoroughbred. Now what the heck does that mean?

 

[Lisa Strass]

Oh, I was not talking about anyone elses horses. Just my own ,and they are Full of Blood and I know who's it is. But really, you can work yourself up to full bloods in some livestock breeds. I think it sounds so good (Full Bloods)and heck after I am gone for 25 years or so, someone might come along and think I acually knew what I was talking about.

My horses are all Full of Blood also - at least I hope so! Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Matt73]

Kind of like the name Thoroughbred. Now what the heck does that mean?

Sorry. Just jumped to the last page and saw this. A Thoroughbred is a breed of horse. Like Arabian, Quarterhorse, Hanoverian, etc. Here ya go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoroughbred

 

[LaVern]

Yah, I kind of know that, but thanks for the site. Good reading. I was just trying to come up with a good name to distinquish my horses from the doubles. And I wondered if it was a bunch of old guys sitting around a round table at a pub that came up with it or maybe it was somebodys last name. Myrtle Thoroughbred maybe. Any way it is a good name and so is Full Bloods.