New Rule Change - NO not on Heigth

[JWC sr.]

I was thinking about a rule change by both registries that would allow horses to retain the papers they have, but not be allowed into the breeding pool. It would require a box on the papers where the breeder could check “ Not For Breeding” and would not be revocable by anyone except the original breeder.

It might help to cut down on the number of grade mini’s we all see without papers that come from farms where the horse did not measure up to a specific breeding program, but still would make good youth, performance etc. horse. With colts it is pretty simple to just geld them, the fillies and mares are the main problem.

At an Exotic auction I was at a couple of months ago, I saw a group of un-registered mini's go thru and recognized the horses from a farm in the area and ask why they were selling them like that and the response was we do not want them in anyones breeding pen and hopefully this will discourage them from using them for breeding. The horses ended up going to a game farm in Mexico, so I doubt we will ever see them again, but several were pretty nice horses.

What is everyone's thoughts on this.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

My first thought, I am afraid, is that I should very much like an hour, alone, out of sight of the rest of the world, with the unmentionables that sold these horses "down the river"!!!

As to your suggestion- YES, resoundingly- I have suggested it myself many times.

Been able to do that on KC papers in the UK for years.

Unfortunately the law in Europe will no longer allow it to be acceptable.

 

[Songcatcher]

It sounds like a good idea to me. However, I reserve the right to change my mind after reading/listening to discussion on the issue.

 

[Minimor]

I'm sorry, I just got very sidetracked by mention of those poor horses going to a game farm in Mexico. That is just so wrong. I would suggest that the breeder of those horses should rethink their breeding program if that's all their foals are worth to them.

As for breeding stock papers, I don't think it's a bad idea--I'm sure that designation would be a benefit in some cases. However, I don't think it would make a big impact on the breeding of unregistered Minis. If a person will breed two unregistered horses to make more unregistered horses, that same person will have no problem in breeding two "non-breeding stock" registered horses to get some unregistered horses.

With colts it is pretty simple to just geld them, the fillies and mares are the main problem.

For some it is pretty simple to geld colts, but for others it seems to be a major effort, and so many just don't want to put out the money to geld. How many times do we hear just on this board that gelding is too expensive, and if they pay to geld their colts they cannot recoup that expense on the selling price of the resulting geldings, and therefore they must sell their colts as stallions.

 

[Devon]

ITs a cool idea for sure. Id be ecstatic if it passed. Awesome I've seen a few grades that I like the conformation of more then my Reg'd mini; but shut down the idea to myself because I show so much

Well I did buy a grade colt but I know his breeding just paper problems OH!

 

[HGFarm]

You know, I think this is something that should certainly be discussed- wisely and from all sides of the situation.

Rabbits, I'm sorry to hear that Europe will no longer allow that- AKC here does- the puppy papers can be marked that no puppies can be registered from that dog.

I think there are several reasons why this might be a good option with Minis- there are several 'defects' that could be reduced as well by something like this. Minis have an issue with dwarfism. There is also an issue with Minis and ponies, as in small dogs, with collapsing tracheas. I am sure there are other things as well that should be looked into and addressed, some that I have probably never heard of, but yes, even just 'pet quality', like the puppies, should be looked at as well.

The option should NOT be taken lightly, as you certainly dont want any and all breeders marking this box on every horse they sell, and some, marked as a weanling, may turn out to be a fabulous horse that someone would desire offspring from, that ARE nice quality and healthy horses.

The only problem I see is that perhaps the value would go down on this horse? And it would not stop the 'pet factories' from breeding unregistered foals from it, hardshipping them in later anyway, or selling them downriver, as someone put it, for a few bucks. (And yes, that farm really needs to get a grip!)

I personally would like to hear more about it......... other people's opinions here, pros and cons, etc... before I would make a wise and healthy decision to be for or against.

Thank you John, for posting that here for folks to think about and discuss something of this nature...... !

 

[Jill]

I have thought something along these lines would be an excellent idea for a long time.

 

[cjmm10]

I think it sounds like a good idea. Can someone take this to the AMHR &AMHA to be discussed?

cjmm

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I myself have brought up this issue and it seemed to me alot of people were supporative about it. I had a filly at that time that had my farm name on her but unfortuantly she came out with a bad bite and never got better. Yeah she may not throw it, but she shouldn't be used for breeding anyways. I can understand non-breeding horses not be shown in halter classes and such but as I saw her as being a really nice performance horse. I never really wanted to sell her cause I didn't want anybody to breed her, and trust me somebody would cause she was real colorful. I threw out this idea here on this forum about having non-breeding papers and I felt the majority thought it was a great idea. They wouldn't allow registered babies from that horse but could still be shown.

I really wish someone would would bring this up to convention. I emailed my director about it last year but never heard anything more about it. I never really took more action cause my mare had more problems then I thought and couldn't be shown. However, I really feel like this would be a great idea to both registeries and would be very beneficial.

Unfortuantly it may not stop the breeding of that horse, but it won't allow bad conformation horses in and that horse can still be shown, if that horse is desired to be shown without having to take papers away.

 

[Keri]

I don't think this is a great idea for several reasons. One being, what someone doesn't think would be a good breeding horse, another would. We all have our ideas as to what the perfect breeding horse should look like. I don't look at "halter" style horses to breed, but look for ones built more for performance. So they have shorter backs, up/down strides, etc. So if someone puts non-breedable on their papers, what good is this horse to me if I feel it would produce excellent horses for performance????

Also, it was mentioned that this wouldn't stop people from breeding them. We would acquire more unregistered stock in the mini world (as to my opinion). OH!

I think this is a great idea for horses that may carry bad genetics such as dwarfism and so forth. But if the seller is selling this horse, they should take the time to make sure its going to a home that will use it for show or pleasure and not for breeding. That's just an extra concern I think should be taken by the seller. I know its hard to take someone's word, but its the best you can do.

Also, wouldn't this cause more of a price problem???? Now these mares are worth a geldings price in the market. You sell them, someone takes them and breeds and out comes an unreg. mini becuase they found an affordable mare. If this is such a big problem, take the money and get them spayed. I know several show mares out there that are spayed due to people not wanting them to breed for various reasons. Just my opinion though.

 

[Neil]

I think that this is a good idea John, something that the AKC has done for a number of years. In the long run I can see where it would be very good for minis.

 

[Matt73]

Love the idea! They have the same thing in the Canadian Kennel Club (non-breeding agreement), why not AMHR/AMHA?

 

[Mona]

I think for the most part, it is a wonderful idea! I do have a couple of comments though, one in regards to what you wrote, and one in regards to what Keri wrote. Yours first...

I was thinking about a rule change by both registries that would allow horses to retain the papers they have, but not be allowed into the breeding pool. It would require a box on the papers where the breeder could check “ Not For Breeding” and would not be revocable by anyone except the original breeder.

Overall, I feel it will not solve all the problems, yet it will definitely help to keep the quality of our breed up, as well as allow people to own and show a horse that may for one reason or another not be suitable for breeding.

For Halter classes, they should not be allowed to participate in the regular halter classes, as those are to showcase the best of the best, and to use those superior models to breed our future. Since these horses we are referring to will be non-breeding, that would not apply to them, but I feel they SHOULD have some sort of a non-breeding Halter Class, as well as being able to participate openly in any and all performance classes.

I have colored in red, the part that may need rewording/rethinking. This mentions the breeder checking the box. I personally feel that little box option should be made available on every new registration application as well as every transfer! As an example as to why...

I bought a mare...6 year old maiden, pretty little mare. She was R only, I hardshipped her into A also. I bred her and she lost the foal late term....had to be cut out of her...pretty gruesome to say the least! Next time I bred her, she went into labor, the foal was breach. The vet and I were able to get that foal pulled breach position. That was all I wanted...I could no longer go through that with her.

I had no idea if this was just fluke or what, so I decided to sell her. When I did, I disclosed all info to anyone inquiring on her, and did not sell her as breeding sound...sold her with no guarantees. The lady that bought her took her chances, and she lost that foal too. That lady then also decided to sell her also being honest and informing the person as to why she was selling her as a pet only, WITHOUT papers and not to be used for breeding.

Now, IF this type of rule were implemented, in my example above, I would have liked to have been able to put that little check mark in that box when I sold her, and I know the other person would have like to have also been able to once she sold her. So, I guess what I am saying is, that I feel not only the breeder should have the right, but anyone owning the horse along the way should also have that right, and NO ONE other than the actual person that placed the restriction should be able to lift it, not even the breeder, if it was someone other than them that placed the restriction. Furthermore, even then, both the owner and person owning the horse at the time would BOTH have to apply and sign for it together. That way when a person places this restriction, there is always a reason they have done so, and no one can overturn that decision.

This brings me to my next comment, directed towards Keri's comment. My example above should hopefully help explain to you the reason(s) why someone may place this restriction. It doesn't always mean the horse is not quality, it just means that for whatever the reason, the breeder or the owner thereafter that places the restriction is doing so for a reason that THEY are firmly set about. So it may be a World Champion, and could still be set with these papers at some point. Some breeders may want to do it as their way of trying to reduce overpopulation...no, it won't guarantee the horse won;t be bred, BUT, it will guarantee that no offspring from that horse will be allowed registration! Many people will sell a quality horse for a pet price to a good home, or a show home, or a 4H home etc. Just because there are breeding restrictions placed, does not automatically make them an unworthy specimen of the breed. Yes, some will be poor examples for one reason or another, but not all will. And as to you r comment about everyone seeing the quality differently, like if I say it is not breeding quality, but you think it is, if it is my horse that I am selling, and I feel that is something I want as a condition of the sale, that is what I will do. You, as the potential buyer has 2 options...agree to the condition, buy the horse and have fun with it and love it regardless, or walk away, and buy a breeding horse from another farm. (or another from my farm if you want, but all I am saying is it is your choice to buy that horse with the restriction, or not.)

By the way, I find a forum such as this such a useful tool in coming up with new rules. When brought before so many people in this way, they have plenty of time to think, and come up with ideas on what or might not fly, and why.

Thanks for asking this here, we sure need to see more of this in the future to get an idea of the general memberships reactions to such rule additions/changes. What one person may overlook, another may catch, and this too may help to get things through the proper channels sooner.

 

[user 488]

Excellent idea. Have thought so for a long time.

 

[Keri]

Okay, I see some of your points. But my biggest problem with this proposal is it being used in a negative way. Imagine someone with a foundation stallion marking this box on over half the offspring. Then they turn around and charge outrageous prices for the other offspring or breed fees. This is not what the miniature horse club is about (to me). I know most people wouldn't do it and use this box to ensure genetic problems aren't allowed. But there will always be a few people who would turn this postive action into a negative one. For example (JUST AN EXAMPLE), the owner of buckeroo doing this (not like they would, but its an example to show the impact). Where would the miniature horse breed be??? I swear half the horses I look at have buckeroo in them.

So this would make people look into breeding to more affordable stallions. And then maybe more grade minis would come out of this instead of better breeding quality.

Its a great idea for mares that have problems breeding or genetic problems.

 

[Mona]

Okay, I see some of your points. But my biggest problem with this proposal is it being used in a negative way. Imagine someone with a foundation stallion marking this box on over half the offspring. Then they turn around and charge outrageous prices for the other offspring or breed fees. This is not what the miniature horse club is about (to me). I know most people wouldn't do it and use this box to ensure genetic problems aren't allowed. But there will always be a few people who would turn this postive action into a negative one. For example (JUST AN EXAMPLE), the owner of buckeroo doing this (not like they would, but its an example to show the impact). Where would the miniature horse breed be??? I swear half the horses I look at have buckeroo in them.

So this would make people look into breeding to more affordable stallions. And then maybe more grade minis would come out of this instead of better breeding quality.

Its a great idea for mares that have problems breeding or genetic problems.

This is not in a negative way. That person OWNS the horse. They can do what they want...they may feel it is BETTERING the breed in doing so. They may mark that box, ask those atrocious prices, and they may, or may not get them, BUT, it is their choice. If people don't like it and don't agree with it, then thy won't go to that person to buy a horse from that foundation stallion. It's plain and simple, much like selling on a gelding contract...this is how it is set...if you agree, you buy, if not, you shop elsewhere, and then when you have foals of your own, or own horses of your own, you can decide how you want to proceed with it when the time comes to sell them.

You used Buckeroo as an example...if LKF did that, it would be THEIR choice. They would have their reasons for soing it, but why in all reality, would they? It is their bread and butter. They know Buckeroo offspring bring in top dollars from other breeders. Those same horses may not bring them the money if they could not be bred, so they likely wouldn't do it.

AND...just to take it one step further...if this was in and Buckeroo had been sold on a non breeding thing, then no one would be the wiser to what an excellent producer he has proven himself to be, so no one would have missed it.

 

[Songcatcher]

Very good points on both sides. One thing I have thought of that needs to be added, this will only work after hardshipping has been closed. Otherwise, a horse with non breeding papers could just be hardshipped in as unknown.

 

[Mona]

Very good points on both sides. One thing I have thought of that needs to be added, this will only work after hardshipping has been closed. Otherwise, a horse with non breeding papers could just be hardshipped in as unknown.

Only if it was never DNA'd!

If it has been previously DNA'd, then it will alert them to a DNA match, and they will bring up photos on file and compare the photos with the horse being hardshipped.

I know, because with the example I gave, there were concerns of something like this happening after the party I sold the mare to, sold her to the next party. The lady I sold her to, contacted me to let me know that the person that bought the mare from her, might try contacting me to bypass her for the paperwork. I told her that would not happen, not to worry, BUT, I too thought maybe she would try to hardship the mare and get her in that way, so I called AMHA, and this was what I was told, so even that now is fairly safe...at least safer than it was a few years ago.

But GOOD point!!

 

[Amy]

Yes, dogs can be sold with non-breeding papers- marked as pet only-- they cannot be shown or puppies registered. However, this does not stop people form breeding them -- they just sell them as non-registered from registered stock.

Thsi would not stop the breeding of non-registered horses-- just make more grades.either a person wants breeding stock & the "papers" are worht something to them OR not -- some people do NOT care & we cannot legislate caring. JMHO

 

[Katiean]

I would really hate to see them limit registration like A.K.C does. My reason for this is, We have a pure bred Japanese Chin. She is not A.K.C because someone with her mother or her mothers mother limited the registration. Because they say something like " $300 limited registration or $900 full registration". People don't want to put out the higher bucks sothey pay the cheeper price and register in some other registery. She is registered but she is registered A.P.R.I. or some other "PET REGISTERY" I am not sure which registery she is with because we did rescue her from a puppy mill at age 5. But, my point is aside from AMHA and AMHR How many other registeries are there that would love to add that well bred grade horse to their registery so that a person can say they have a registered horse? Just think about it.