Open the AMHA Studbook to Hardship AMHR Horses

[JMS Miniatures]

I think you will always have AMHR/ASPC breeders will always try to breed for smaller but hopefully the quality will continue. Also it still helps the ASPC as far as registration goes unless people start throwing papers away like people did last time. I think ASPC ponies are getting more popular.

I have been taking pics for horses for sale at a farm that breeds for AMHR/ASPC and some are just 1/2 shetland and they are the sweetest minis. It really has changed my mind on the AMHR/ASPC ponies.

Also I have seen some minis with ugly head and same goes with ASPC ponies, and both with pretty heads so I don't think its fair to say one has uglier heads then the other.

 

[Minimor]

Also I have seen some minis with ugly head and same goes with ASPC ponies, and both with pretty heads so I don't think its fair to say one has uglier heads then the other.

This is so very true, in all respects. I have seen some really awful mugs on some Shetlands, but at the same time some of the ugliest heads I've seen have been on Miniatures that hadn't had an actual Shetland in their pedigree for generations. Likewise I have seen some very pretty headed Minis, and there are Shetlands that have absolutely lovely heads.

 

[AshleyNicole]

Just a few thoughts not in any particular order

Don't see a problem with closing AMHA, there are more AMHA registered horses then there are Shetlands in ASPC or several other horse breeds, just need to be responsible in our breeding to eliminate dwarfism without a test.

Will make me sad that some of my horses will not be able to be hardshipped AMHA but on the other hand we really don't need a third shetland registry either. Somewhere the miniature horse type should be able to grow and thrive and, like many others, I do prefer the AMHA type mini to the pony type.

Sure do wish AMHA would make a place for oversize offspring of two registered parents though. Have a few of those oversize AMHA bred minis and their foals have all stayed under but have to be hardshipped back in...what a loss to throw them away for an inch or less.

I totally agree with this. We really need a place for those of us who love the miniature type. Several have said that if AMHA does not follow the current trend they may lose members. I don't see that happening at all. In fact AMHR may lose members because there is less and less of a place in AMHR for those of us who love the AMHA type miniature horse. As far as the dwarfism problem almost every breed has something we as breeders need to look out for and avoid. As I said we also breed Thoroughbreds and our stallion has no Native Dancer in his pedigree or any other horse that is known to produce a lot of weak boned horses. I won't have a mare that has that up close in her pedigree either. It is our responsibly as breeders to avoid known defects. Cull a horse that produces a dwarf. It's that simple although I know not everyone will do it. I also don't think it is as big of a problem as it used to be. Breeders have been educated about dwarfism and are no longer really breeding for the smallest horse.

I also wish AMHA had a place for oversize horses but maybe that is something we can look into as we get more involved with AMHA.

Very pretty but still a bit longer than I prefer...

View attachment 6391

My gelding, this is my type preference. Not the greatest pic, he was deciding if NoNoBadKitty was tasty.....

Love his head. I have a blue boy stallion that puts the nicest heads on a lot of his foals. haven't seen a Shetland imo with a head near as nice as what he produces

 

[Riverdance]

The founding Shetlands look nothing like the Shetlands in the AMHR show ring today. Rowdy and GMB were basically Shetlands and they look nothing like even some of the 34" and under Shetlands of today. I may get flamed but to me anyway AMHR is turning into a smaller division of ASPC and from talking to some of the judges this past year that is what the goal is. They know that people prefer a double registered horse and if that horse happens to be ASPC/AMHR instead of AMHA/AMHR thats better for them as they money stays in AMHR. I can understand that from a business stance but I prefer the look of AMHA type. Flame me if you like but this was what we were told from several AMHR judges this past year and why we are switching to AMHA shows.

I totally agree with you. I left AMHR years ago, because they are not a Miniature horse club, but just a Miniature registry. They are though, a Shetland horse club. I saw the writing on the wall years ago. AMHR was making tons of money for the Shetland club, and yet they had no say and were not allowed on the board. I still see tons of the AMHR money being spent on Shetland shows, one in particular that costs quite a bit of money for very few entries. Just because the show has been around for years.

I want to have some sort of say as to how my money is being spent. I also have said in the past, if I wanted a Shetland, I would breed for Shetlands. I really do not want to breed Mini Shetlands. Not to say that some of them are not beautiful, just not my type. They have longer heads than I prefer, narrower through the forehead too. Give me an AMHA Miniature head anytime.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

It's quite obvious that AMHA and AMHR are going different directions. Obviously AMHA members don't want to be involved with the shetlands and I can respect that and competely understand. More then likely the association will close their stud book entirely and hopefully it will be successful and the AMHA miniature will be strong. However I feel once its closed its closed forever otherwise if you open it back up your just saying that the AMHA miniature wasn't as strong as you once thought. I think more people will either choose AMHA or AMHR but I just don't see it in AMHA's favor. Hopefully I'm wrong and both will remain strong.

Yes the AMHR/ASPC orgization has its problems but I feel like its stronger then it has been the past few years.

 

[LaVern]

I agree, the two are going in different directions. And for those of us that have tried to raise a more AMHA looking horse ( shorter back, pretty head, perhaps not as much high stepping movement, ect.) 36 inch horse, there doesn't seem to be much of a place. But it will be what it will be, and no one is making us register them either way.

 

[AshleyNicole]

I guess I was hoping there would be a place for non Shetland minis in AMHR but that is less and less likely. I have several over minis that I will have to sell eventually for less than what I paid I'm sure. That is what is so bad about it. Where do over non Shetland minis go? There is less and less a place for them to show in AMHR. JMS I think closing the books is the right way to go and the first step to making miniatures a breed. I also don't think AMHA is struggling like people say, it can only get stronger if the studbook remains closed and people will show in AMHA as they realize that their non Shetland mini has less and less of a place in AMHR even in the under division. I see only positive things if the studbook remains closed the Thoroughbred studbook has been closed over 150 years and while there are some problems in the breed it has not over all affected the breed in a negative way.

 

[Lewella]

I see only positive things if the studbook remains closed the Thoroughbred studbook has been closed over 150 years and while there are some problems in the breed it has not over all affected the breed in a negative way.

Seriously? Thoroughbred breeders are incredibly concerned about the lack of genetic diversity in the breed! Why do you think AI is not allowed and only live cover? That was mandated to limit the number of foals a stallion could sire per year and help prevent the overuse of popular stallions from further reducing the gene pool. The growing popularity of stallions standing part of the year in the Northern Hemisphere and part of the year in the Southern Hemisphere and thus breeding almost year around is a huge concern in the Jockey Club and may result in furture registration rules because it too is reducing the genetic diversity of the breed. Thoroughbreds have, thanks to their lack of genetic diversity, developed horrible immune systems. No matter how routinely she's been vaccinated, a Thoroughbred mares colostrum often isn't good enough - foals are routinely given plasma shortly after birth to ensure they receive immunity. I could go on and on but lets suffice to say that the Thoroughbred could be used as the poster breed for why a narrow gene pool is not a good thing!

 

[Magic]

If AMHA is closing the studbook because they are afraid of letting in ASPC papered horses, then I think it's a pity and a very short-sighted move. Why be afraid of progress? If the ponies had something horrible that AMHA was trying to keep out, like a disease, that would be one thing, but keeping out possible IMPROVEMENT to the "breed"? Come on! And if AMHA closes the studbook but doesn't make a provision for the foals that go over 34", born to registered, under parents, I really think that the registry is cutting its own throat.

I used to show both AMHA and AMHR when I got started with the minis (many eons ago) and one of my fillies was too tall to show as a yearling and two year old in AMHA because of the height limits, so I started showing much more in AMHR instead. That filly stayed under 34" as an adult, but I was already showing more in AMHR by then, and just didn't care to go back. The fact that a mini that goes over 34" isn't rejected by AMHR made that my registry of choice for showing in. I have AMHA registered horses too, and I have been regularly hardshipping horses in as well, ironically these are horses that have AMHA backgrounds but one of their parents had gone over so the foals weren't able to have AMHA papers until being hardshipped in. AMHA will be missing out on getting these kind of horses back into their registry, which will only hurt the registry in the long run.

 

[Eohippus]

If AMHA is closing the studbook because they are afraid of letting in ASPC papered horses, then I think it's a pity and a very short-sighted move. Why be afraid of progress? If the ponies had something horrible that AMHA was trying to keep out, like a disease, that would be one thing, but keeping out possible IMPROVEMENT to the "breed"? Come on! And if AMHA closes the studbook but doesn't make a provision for the foals that go over 34", born to registered, under parents, I really think that the registry is cutting its own throat.

Not every one sees ASPC ponies as an improvement to the breed; in this topic alone there was already a discussion on preferred head types. So to some the ponies may not be an improvement to the breed. However, I feel that there are ways around having ponies in AMHA, but having the books still open. Think about the pinto horse association. It doesn't allow known appaloosa within so many generations or any appaloosa characteristics. AMHA could, if they wanted to leave the stud books open but keep ASPC ponies out, have something saying that ASPC isn't allowed or characteristics/traits x, y, and z aren't allowed. AMHA could even have "types" like the PtHA and to be hard shipped a miniature must fit into one of the "types" and meet the approval of an inspector (yes, more costly to hardship but it would make it harder to hardship and most of a closed registry with out being closed).

The PtHA appaloosa rule is this:

"The PtHA does not accept any horses with Appaloosa, draft or mule breeding and/or characteristics or known breeding within the previous four generations, except for utility classified horses."

 

[Magic]

But I don't understand why that "type" has to be kept out of AMHA; if it isn't preferred then why not just NOT breed with that background if it isn't the preferred type? It seems to me that it's fear of having to compete against them that is the biggest factor, unless I'm missing something?

 

[ohmt]

No, you're right Magic. It's not wanting to compete against them. I am one that has recently purchased an AMHR/ASPC colt that I will later be using on some "A" mares (as long as he stays as gorgeous as he is) in the hopes to get his lovely proportions in smaller sizes. His head is actually beautiful by the way and I am really picky about heads. If AMHA doesn't keep their hardshipping open to AMHR horses, that will be a shame, but since finding an AMHA show around here is almost impossible unless I want to drive 9 hours, it's not going to hurt me that much.

 

[Magic]

I just really worry about the future of AMHA if the book closes.

All of those "parents have gone over but the foal is under" registrations will be lost to the registry, as will the "parents are under but the foal is over" possible registrations. Unless, I guess, those horses' papers are kept regardless of the size of the horses? I guess it has been happening the entire time anyway, and there may be an even greater incentive to try to keep a horse's papers if they go over than before, since it won't be possible to get any future foals back into the registry.

Does this seem like a kind of "shooting themselves in the foot" sort of thing to anyone else? Or is it just me?

 

[horsehug]

I agree with you completely, Magic, and really want to see them keep AMHA open to hardshipping.

I think there is always a possibility of it passing either next year or in the future, possibly with changes in the way it is written. I also hope someone someday comes up with a good cost effective way to let the members who do not make it to the meeting still vote so we all have a voice. If that had been the case this year I feel confident it would have passed, just looking at the numbers of people who signed the petition Little Hooves posted on here. It was 78!

Susan O.

 

[stormy]

I find it absolutely hilarious the arguement that not allowing ASPC horses to cross register into AMHA is standing in the way of progress...AMHR closed the books against all outside hardshipping years ago....shutting out MANY individuals that might have improved the AMHR miniature horse...note I said individuals, not breeds...ASPC is not the only registry with individual animals of high quality.

AMHA certainly does not need the ASPC influence to improve and move the breed forward, just dedicated and careful breeders.

 

[Charlotte]

I have a question and I hope someone can answer it for me.

I read so much on here about the concerns related to the miniature horse having such a limited/small gene pool.

In the 1990s, before Frank retired from the animal health industry, he was on the AMHA Genetics Committee and because of his business contacts was asked to contact various genetics laboratories regarding developing a DNA testing program for the AMHA miniature horse. At that time he was told that the AMHA American Miniature Horse had the most diverse gene pool of any modern day horse breed.

Has this diverse gene pool become greatly reduced in just 15 or so years? I didn't think that would be possible.

Does anyone have some facts for me?

 

[Eohippus]

I have a question and I hope someone can answer it for me.

I read so much on here about the concerns related to the miniature horse having such a limited/small gene pool.

In the 1990s, before Frank retired from the animal health industry, he was on the AMHA Genetics Committee and because of his business contacts was asked to contact various genetics laboratories regarding developing a DNA testing program for the AMHA miniature horse. At that time he was told that the AMHA American Miniature Horse had the most diverse gene pool of any modern day horse breed.

Has this diverse gene pool become greatly reduced in just 15 or so years? I didn't think that would be possible.

Does anyone have some facts for me?

I think its entirely possible. Probably, maybe not as much, but... Look at Buckeroo and how popular his foals are. Or any of the real popular stallions of any time. It is possible for the majority of the breed to focus on a handful of stallions and the genetic diversity of the breed dwindle faster than one might expect

 

[Charlotte]

Eohippus, thank you for your response. I'm really looking for some facts since we seem to have a lot of conjecture with no facts to base it on.

By the way, I would love to see a picture of your Houck horse. We showed so many Houcksters for a number of years.....wonderful horses!

 

[shelia]

I think we allready have some shetland influence in AMHA. Not a lot of it, but we do see it at the shows. Perhaps a lot of people want to keep those numbers small to keep the prices up. Many people are liking that look. That could be why it was voted down by so many when a lot of us thought it seems to be the new hot look.

I know some people don't like the look, but everybody seems to have a different opinion on what a mini should look like anyway. I see in a different thread that the new standard of perfection passed. That kind of follows the new shetland look. I have to wonder why one passed and not the other. Just sayin.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I find it absolutely hilarious the arguement that not allowing ASPC horses to cross register into AMHA is standing in the way of progress...AMHR closed the books against all outside hardshipping years ago....shutting out MANY individuals that might have improved the AMHR miniature horse...note I said individuals, not breeds...ASPC is not the only registry with individual animals of high quality.

AMHA certainly does not need the ASPC influence to improve and move the breed forward, just dedicated and careful breeders.

AMHR is not competely closed. AMHR still accepts the hardshipping of AMHA, ASPC, and Fabella registeries. Yes AMHR is a semi-closed registry but it still gives the registry a chance to accept new minis into the registry that may help continue to improve and grow.

Could the law take into its own hands against the AMHA once it becomes a breed if it doesn't accepts all of its AMHA minis because they went over? I would think AMHA would need to allow registration and not disown them. I wonder what AMHA could become if they allowed a B division once they close the registry, would be interesting.