Question on your perception for a stallion to drop

[Sherry]

I wanted to get everyone's perception on what age you think a stallion should be dropped & ready to breed?? My vet's opinion is they should be hitting the ground with dropped testicles. He would worry if they haven't dropped by 6 months & would not breed said stallion if they have not dropped by 1 1/2. I know some have said if they are showing they can come along alittle slower. What is the latest you would consider before deciding that it is a undesirable trait that you would not want passed on?

 

[wwminis]

[SIZE=14pt]Sherry,[/SIZE]

Most little stallions will drop by the time they are 2 years old and be ready to breed! Others take a little longer to mature and will not drop till around 3 years old! And in rare cases I have known several that didn't drop till they were 4 years old!

So, if you have a little guy you really like, don't give up on him to soon!

Bill

 

[Charlotte]

My preference would be those two little jewels are there when those babies are born, BUT with miniatures, they can be right there then go back up and not come down for MONTHS! Like Bill, our vet has seen them drop as late as [SIZE=14pt]5[/SIZE] years old! If you have a 'late bloomer' the more time they spend teasing mares the better......gets the hormones flowing

For myself, I want both down where they should be before I breed him.

That was a lot of help wasn't it?

Charlotte

 

[Sue_C.]

From what I have been told by several Vets; if they aren't there at birth...they won't be. All of our colts had them dropped at birth, and have them suck up after a week or so, only to distend again when they are yearlings. I haven't had any go past that, if I did, they wouldn't be stallion material, IMHO.

Then again, I have gelded all of my colts, except one; and he was sold out of the Country. There are by far, too many miniature stallions in our area, and so many who think that anything male...is a using stallion/stud. Sigh...

 

[Joyce]

I have known some mini stallions that do not drop until they are five years old

so don't give up yet.

Joyce

 

[hhpminis]

I personally have never had one not drop by the time they are 1 1/2 but as the others said, my vet who does a lot of minis says that they seem to be a little slower and sometimes take a few years to drop. Dont give up, if he is a nice boy go ahead and wait.

I too usually see them at birth and then a few weeks later thay are no where to be found. If you did not have the boy at birth you would not know this though.

 

[ThreeCFarm]

I expect them to be down at birth, particularly if I intend to use him for a breeding stallion. As far as them "sucking them back up" and then dropping again later, I would want them down by the time they are a yearling.

That said, my colts don't seem to suck them back up. They have always been there for anyone who wants to feel, LOL.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Mine are all born descended- they HAVE to be. Now, define descended!! A quick duck under will NOT do it, you must get in there and feel, and I do, first thing |I check when the colt is born (well, that and he's breathing- that's always a bonus

) They occasionally go up due to stress when the colt is weaned, but I expect their return by one year old, no later. My stallions are all ready to breed at two, and I expect them to be. I would not wait for a colt to descend. This "Minis drop later" is a self perpetuating myth. They should be dropped by one, they should be ready for work by two. It's like saying a bit of patella luxation is OK- if you keep him in work he stays sound- would you breed to such a horse?? So why is a "bit" of cryptorchidism OK so long as he drops by five??

Having said all that I would be far more worried by a horse over one year old with only one testicle.

 

[Sherry]

Thanks guys for all the responses. I am not new to minis by any means so was seeking more of a opinion on what the perception is on if they go past a certain age do you consider it a genetic defect & not a trait to be passed along?? I have never had any of mine drop at birth that I know of (11 years of breeding) but maybe I was not looking right. Rabbitfizz do you actually see them or do you have to feel for them?? If feeling do they feel like two little knots. I guess after reading some of the posts I could have missed some if they sucked them back up & didn't come down till yearling. How long do they usually stay down right after they are born? I always make sure the foal is healthy first & then of course the quick look to see the sex after that I really don't start looking again for the jewels until they are yearlings. All of mine to date have dropped at the yearling stage. My main point I want to capture is I really expect them too be down by age two & able to breed. If I have to wait longer than that say 3 or more do I consider that a undesirable trait to pass on?? Keep in mind I am only talking about superior conformation to begin with. For those of you that have had stallions wait past 3 or more did you have any insight as to the colts that were bred from said stallion did the tendancy to drop late come into play??

 

[mistyrose]

We had a stallion that was slow maturing and then got sick as a two yr old. When he was at OSU getting xrays they had to sedate him (age 2 1/2). The second testicle was there as soon as the sedation took effect. His guarentee was for actual age 3.

 

[horsehug]

I personally have always felt them at birth on the foals I have had born here , and then if they DO go back up they have always been down again by yearling or 1 and a half. But I never understand the whole thing of it being such an "undesirable" genetic trait if you have to wait a little longer.

It is not like it is a bad conformation trait, or anything painful for the horse that you are perpetuating, or a disease they can die from early, or countless other "bad for the horse" things.

I guess from the monetary standpoint if your horses are a business and you really count on and "need" that particular stud to be producing by the time he is 2, then you need him dropped for sure by two and fertile also. But other than that, I cannot think of any reason why it is considered so bad to wait if he happens to not drop til he is a little older.

I know of one little herd that tends to sometimes have late blooming boys and yet that herd is one of the hardiest and healthiest I have ever known.

They don't start their boys breeding unitl they are about 3 or 4 or even older and they have enough of them that it is not a problem. Heaven knows I also have enough boys to let my boys get really mature before breeding if I choose to, even though the ones born here have always been dropped early.

This is only my personal opinion and not meant to flame anyone who chooses to only let Early bloomers be in their herd!

Susan O.

 

[~Palomino~]

I got a question, if they are not droped, will you still be able to feel them? I felt my little colts, and I could feel them, but I am not sure if you would consider them up or down?

-Gage-

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Sherry, in answer to your question of how I discern their presence- both!! If I cannot see them I feel for them. I check them at least once a week and have never had a colt withdraw, except at weaning. This year my teeniest, tiniest colt who I had to bottle feed fit three days till Mamas milk came through, was born with a good sized pair, obvious and evident, at birth. I fully expected him to withdraw at weaning, as I had to do this early, and this was going to be a pain as he was supposed to be gelded, but he never made the weight for sedation!! At weaning I checked him again and he was still "intact". I checked him again just before he left for his new home, to make sure he could still be gelded and, Yes, there they were. I consider it undesirable merely because the end result, ie Cryptorchidism, which I consider late dropping to be linked to, is very undesirable. As I said earlier, would it be OK to use at stud a Stallion that just has a little bit of luxation?? I do not think so, does anyone else?? So why would you use a stallion that is not dropped at an acceptable age?? All other horse breeds drop by two and are ready to use. In the days when horses were not just pets a colt would be proven by two. He would also breed more than one or two mares in a season- we could have as many as fifty mares with the Arabs, and the fertility was still good (NO I would NOT put a two year old on fifty mares!!) At the moment we have this "myth" that Minis are late dropping. I do not have that problem, all mine drop and mostly stay dropped. I do not know of anyone in this country that has the problem, and no-one has ever said that Minis are late dropping, to me, over here. Therefore I really do think that, like dwarfism, it is something that has crept into to the American lines. I think that, like dwarfism, you would be well advised to do your utmost to eradicate it before we start getting full blow Cryptorchids cropping up all over the place. What do we do then- say that is normal for the breed??

 

[~Palomino~]

can someone explain to me why it is important that they are dropped at a certain age? Is it dangerous? I just dont see why it matters?

-Gage-

 

[js1arab]

Well, I am by no means an expert on here, but the colts I've had born -the first thing I do after seeing that everything else was phsically ok, is to feel for testicles. I personally want them dropped for two reasons, First, if I had a colt I thought should be a breeder I'm either 1) going to want to use him as soon as he's old enough(around 2) to be sure I want him kept in tact (if I don't like what he throws then I could cut him before he gets to used to the idea LOL) and 2) if I sell him as a breeder, the new owner wants him to be ready as soon as possible as well. Who wants to buy a colt, wait 3-5 years before you can try him and then find out he doesn't throw as good as you hoped

The other reason I would want one descended is safety. Maybe the minis don't do this, but in big horse colts. A lot of times the colt will show many of the same signs a stallion does. getting excited, mounting mares, getting cranky at times. I've personally had two friends whose colts did this. Their kids couldn't use the horse in 4-H because technically it's still a stallion and the behavior was too unpredictable. In the one friends case, the testicles were up tight enough the vet didn't even want to attemp to get them down because it would have required a much more intensive type surgery. What a pain. He was climbing all over her mares and being a royal brat. She knew from the start he was not a stallion quality guy and she wanted to cut him but couldn't. For two years he was pretty worthless. He's a nice trail type, but he wasn't good enough for halter and the kids couldn't even show him 4-H. I guess I just don't see the sense in it. If my guys aren't descended at birth, they will be cut when they do drop even if they are nice to prevent from passing that trait on. But that is just my opinion. Not saying anyone else is right or wrong.

 

[hhpminis]

I found this article and thought it was interesting.

Rabbitsfizz, I agree a retained testicle is in essence crypt, but that is a blanket statement and as this article shows there are different levels of retention. I did not go on to copy the whole article but this vets opinion is the same as many in that they are changing their opinion on the fact the cryptorchid is genetic or not and are leaning towrads the not genetic. I am not sure I agree yet but I have been known to be wrong before and until I know for sure I will not breed a crypt horse.

Anyway here is a portion of the article.

Inguinal retention is when the retained testicle is positioned in the inguinal canal. It can be further described as either a temporary or permanent retention.

Temporary retention occurs mainly in ponies and is characterised by small testicles weighing less than forty grams. This condition usually involves only one testicle and in 75% of cases, it is the right side. The retained testicle can occasionally be felt in the inguinal canal but more often than not the horse has to be sedated to allow confirmation of its position. If left alone, the retained testicle will eventually descend into the scrotum by the time the horse has reached three years of age.

Permanent inguinal retention occurs in all types of horses and is characterised by testicles that weigh more than forty grams. Horses with this type of retention are often referred to as ‘high flankers’. Again this condition usually involves only one testicle but right and left sides are equally affected. The retained testicle can be difficult to palpate even after the horse has been sedated.

Abdominal retention describes when the testicle is positioned in the abdominal cavity. This type of retention can be further described as being complete or incomplete.

Complete abdominal retention is where both the testicle and the epididymus are retained within the abdomen. These testicles are usually quite small, having failed to develop fully due to the effect of the higher abdominal temperature. This makes them difficult to locate. They are also fairly mobile within the abdomen and may become mixed up with coils of intestine.

In incomplete abdominal retention, part of the epididymus is located in the inguinal canal but the testicle itself remains in the abdomen.

Diagnosis of a cryptorchid is a job for your veterinarian. Without adequate sedation, most horses resent being handled between their back legs. They are able to quickly retract their testicles upwards especially under the influence of fear, cold weather or cold hands, making the confirmation of the type of retention, difficult.

Palpation of the scrotum of a newborn foal can be confusing. At this age the tail of the epididymus can be larger than the testicle itself. If just the epididymus is positioned in the scrotum, it can easily be mistaken for a testicle

 

[Sherry]

oops accidentally hit reply & didn't capture all. See below.

 

[horsehug]

Thanks for all your answers in regard to "Why"

Part of the answers did in fact say it was necessary like I mentioned for business reasons...... selling etc. and I do understand that.

As to the possiblity of it leading to cryptorchidism, the herd I mentioned that I have the utmost respect for, has never had one turn out to not drop. So in that herd's case the late bloomer syndrome does not lead to that.

As to them acting studly before they drop, this does not happen in that herd either. They are so sweet and docile until they drop. And then they still have nice personalities but of course do know what being a stud is about at that point like they should.

I appreciate the input....... and the fact that we are all entitled to our opinions.

Susan O.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I came to the conclusion that it was a US thing merely because I have been breeding now for 25 years and had never heard of such a thing until I came on this Forum. Since we do not have it, it is obviously not a British "thing" so....where has it come from?? One testicle descended would worry the life out of me, sorry (

) two testicles undescended at two would worry me, but, so long as they appeared that year I would forgive. After that they would be removed as soon as they arrived.

 

[Sherry]

Rabbitsfiizz: You are hitting the nail on the head on what I am trying to decide. In a previous post a while back you stated all of yours were dropped at birth. Truthfully I was blown away by this statement & could only think it might be different in England vs US. Like previously said I have been around countless of minis. Every Nationals, every Regionals but one in 11 years. Almost every horse show from OK to Tx about 10-12 a year & the majority of people seems to think they will come down by 1 1/2. Most of them probably wouldn't believe you if you told them they were present at birth (no offense) so I am thinking the majority is thinking by 1 1/2 that is acceptable. Here is where I need alot of opinions to see what the perception is after that. If they are three & older will most of you consider it a genetic defect? I see where horsehugs is coming from as well. In humans females can get their "nightmare"

at say like age 11 vs 17 & it really has no effect on their reproductive issues in the long run. If it is linked to cryptorchidism then that is not something I want to breed. I know from my vet we can try sedation but I feel that is a artifical way to make them come down & if it goes back to a undesirable trait I do not want to promote that. If it is just a maturity issue like in humans & once they come down whether 2 or 5 but in the end it is just likely to run in that breed a little slower than others than I guess I am having a hard time making it a defect. We don't think any different of a 21 y/o female getting her vistor each month being any different than a 11 year old as long as in the end both had say two wonderful children with no fertility issue at all.

Lets just say we all agree that the medical perception down at birth is correct & what we strive for--then when you look at reality in the US 80% of them are dropping at the yearling stage then would the medical perception be a reasonable bar?? But if PEOPLE's perception is as long as they are able to breed healthy dropped foals by the time they are 5 for example & even produce champions & not showing any evidence of defect just being slow to mature then is that really a nondesirable traits. We are not doing that with humans!!! My concern would be if I sedated the stallion & then he dropped & produce nice show colts & I didn't have a feel for the perception of what people think then when they buy the colts expecting them to breed at twoish & they don't till 3-5 & they are disappointed or it is linked to cryptorchidism & some are only dropping one then I am not a big enough farm yet to have them come back & select another stallion of equal breeding. I in no way want to be in that boat. Reputation is all you have. I am the kind of person that would give them something that broke my heart to do to make it correct because I have been on that receiving end way too many times. I want happy & REPEAT customers. So if people are buying from said stallions colts & are disappointed or I am creating problems down the road if linked co cryp. then I will get the stallion replaced. If he is just slow to mature & all is well in the overall I would really love to see his babies cause he is that nice.

Sorry so long it is just really important to me & I lot of $ & I want to make the correct decision that is the most important.