Troubles picking hooves

[Earthology]

OH!

I have been owner of my mini for two weeks now. Slowly building that bond with her, I know that is something to keep working towards. She is 3 years old.

She is semi-edgy about letting me pick her hooves. Slowly over time I have been working with her. But now I am starting to get frustrated because I know she has manure cloged in there and I don't want to see her get thrush.

In the past I would ask her to pick up her hoof. I say "up" after stroking her leg. USSUALLY she is good about picking up her leg, but she does not want to do so for too long. I praise her on good turns lavishly. Occassionally she tries to move away from me and I am not willing to try and force her to stay. Twice in one day she tried to bite me. I posted here for some suggestions.

My thought was using cross ties. One person had a good suggestion, to just put her lead through the loop on a post: if she tries to bite say "NO" and pull her chin down. This is the mothod I used, however she was tied. I pulled her chin down a few times and said "NO."

I also attempted the treats today. She would still try to move away so I tried the treats and tying her. She would still try to move away: drop her hoof, or just walk away as far as she could, being tied and all. I praised on good lifts. At times I said "whoa" or "no."

Overall though, it was going better. That said, her ears were laid back often and once she tried to bite. Even with the positive reinforcement and treats.

I want her to know that I am ring leader, but I dont want to use force to do so outright. So, I give positive reinforcement overall, but today when she tried to nibble me, I defintly tapped her should and said "NO!"

I didn't want to end the training on that note though. I wanted to end on a good note. So I gave her a few seconds to settle and began again. We did end on a good note: her calmy picking her hoof up and me letting it go quickly.

In 30 minutes I was able to accomplish.... ONE HOOF.

UGH! Those hooves really need cleaned! One hoof is better than none though. Still, this process is taking much too slow in my opinion. And it was ALOT of work just to get that one hoof done. Furthermore, I still wasn't able to clean the hoof to "perfection." I wasn't able to get a good look at the frog. My end-goal is that I will be able to safel pick her hooves at a much quicker rate

I called her previous owner and she said she only ever had the farrier work on her hooves. ***In other words, they didn't pick their horses hooves daily, meaning of course, that my horse isnt used to it. Add to that though, she said that this mini had never tried to bite before, that she stood really good for the farrier. So... I am confused. She had no suggestions to give me.

To me it seems like two things: number 1) she isn't used to it overall 2) BUT the farrier has more skill than me so she relaxes more easily.

I have tried finding a good hoof-picking video for minis online. I can only find one for bigger horses, where people can really get in and under their horse.

*** IS THERE A TRICK WITH MINIS? That is: I don't really want to crouch down & put myself in a vulnerable position, but perhaps if I did, then I would be supporting her weight a bit and she woud relax? Right now I just kind of stand beside her and hold the hoof. Once I did kneal down and pushed up against her, but she still didn't like it and pulled away. UGH!

*** She really doesn't like it at ALL when I try to get her to lift her back hooves. She basically won't do it. She is more willing with her front hooves.

Since I canot find a video and I don't know of any other mini owners nearby, could someone PLEASE explain the proper stance for me when working on front and back hooves.

I know this is all pretty basic. But I want to make SURE I'm doing it right before I goof things up!

Tonight, I am going to have my boyfriend help me out just so I KNOW her hooves are cleaned. I've only tried doing this by myself, but maybe with another person there it will be easier to control her?

LASTLY: the area where I do this is right in her "stall" which is a GIANT "shed" that I have converted (it is VERY nice!) I prefer to pick her hooves here becaue this is where I would like to clean her hooves in the morning before work/at night when we bring her back in.

 

[Minimor]

I would have to say that I think you are being too lenient with her--she is walking all over you, and you are allowing her to do it!

I am big on giving treats for my horses, but they do not get treats for misbehaving--which is essentially what is happening in your case. You are trying to bribe her into standing still, she sees it as "I move and fuss around & I will get treats". Never mind the treats.

Tie her high enough and short enough that she cannot bob her head down to make contact with any portion of her anatomy--obviously do not tie her up uncomfortably high, but high/short enough that she has little room to fuss around. Tie short enough and she's not going to be able to walk off on you. I assume you are tying her to a fence post, and not just a post that's out in the open for no purpose other than being used to tie a horse to? So, tie her to the fence post, and position her along the fence line, and you will be on the open side. This way you have effectively sandwiched her between yourself and the fence. She can step forward or backward but cannot swing away from you and won't be able to swing in your direction unless she's going to knock you aside. Stand at her shoulder facing her back end. Run your hand down her leg to her ankle. If she doesn't pick up the foot when you give a little squeeze on her ankle, pull the foot outward a little bit--a little sideways pull will often cause the horse to lift the foot. Or pull the foot forward a bit--it's often easier to get the horse to lift the foot forward off the ground, then you can bend the knee & bring the foot back into position for cleaning. Cleaning the front foot can usually be done pretty quickly unless it's cold/snowy and the foot is packed with ice/snow/frozen manure--then it is harder to clean out thoroughly.

For the back hoof, position the horse the same way, along the fence, between you & the fence. Face the back end, and stand just in front of the hip. Run your hand down the leg to the fetlock, grasp the leg just above the fetlock & pull the leg forward to bring the foot up off the ground. If the horse resists you can lift the foot to this point & hold it there until the horse gives in & stands still. You may have to do this a few times, or for a few days, until the horse is okay with having the foot lifted & held. You won't be able to clean the foot with it held in this position, but that's okay, at this point the goal is to get the horse to give in and stand still with the hind foot lifted off the ground. Once the horse accepts this, step toward the tail--back and a bit in toward the horse & in the same motion bring the foot back into position for cleaning. Again, the goal is to get the horse to accept standing still in this position. Once she does stand still, then you can clean the foot. When it's time to do the feet on the 2nd side, have the horse swing around to stand against the fence, facing the opposite way.

If the horse fusses around too much & tries to more forward/backward too much, move to her head, give a tug on the rope and say firmly WHOA and then start again. When she realizes there is no benefit in fussing and that she is no longer going to succeed in winning, she will almost certainly give up & stand still and let you clean all 4 feet.

If you absolutely cannot manage on your own then yes, get your boyfriend to help you. I would still tie her up as above, but have him stand at her head & prevent her from any fussing forward/backward--an extra person will definitely help to keep her still.

Then--she can have her treats when you are all finished.

 

[Earthology]

No, I only give her the treats as a reward when she does what I want her to do, such as stand still and cooperate.When she fusses, she gets nothing.

"I assume you are tying her to a fence post, and not just a post that's out in the open for no purpose other than being used to tie a horse to? So, tie her to the fence post, and position her along the fence line, and you will be on the open side. This way you have effectively sandwiched her between yourself and the fence. She can step forward or backward but cannot swing away from you and won't be able to swing in your direction unless she's going to knock you aside."

LOVE IT! Thanks so much! That's what she was doing: swinging away from me. THANKS! THANKS!

 

[rubyviewminis]

Well, a horse is a horse mini or bigi. The best way to teach her manners would be to move her feet. Jerking on the lead, saying no, or begging with treats will only cause problems. If she knows how to back, turn away from you on the forequarter, and turn the hindquarter, and backing, put her through those moves to get her thinking, then stop to pick hooves. Don't beg her or she will eventually end up taking off someone's fingers or chunk of skin. Every time she even breathes she is going to flatten her ears or try to bite immediately make her move her feet in those directions, without yelling, jerking, or putting emotion into it. Just make her move. If she doesn't know those directions teach her those before trying to pick hooves. I taught all mine that when I kiss and tap their fetlock, pick up the hoof. I have an especially temperamental filly I just adore. But I had to teach her some exercises and then move her feet everytime she tries to get mean. It works just like other horses tell her to behave, move your feet.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

You may think you are rewarding her for good behavior but to me it sounds like she is looking for those treats and she will start nibbling on you and then bite you when she doesn't get her way. Treats are fine on occasion but if they expect it all the time usually this is what ends up happening.

If she is good about you rubbing her legs then ask her to pick them up, don't even try and grab them just ask her to pick the legs up. Once she does just drop it and rub. Once she is good at just picking them up then hold on to the leg but not very long at first. The worst thing you can do is let her drop the leg when she is fighting IMO. You don't want to force it and make it stay there but just go with it. Once she is good just drop it and rub. Do it for longer periods of time. Once she is good with you just holding her leg start tapping it with the palm of you hand or a hoof pick, just follow the same steps as above. Once she is good with all that then try and pick out her feet. It may take a while but it does work. I had one that had a absoulute fit for the farrier and just doing the steps above improved a lot.

The important thing is not to rush this. You just have to find a starting point.

She may have done well for the past owners if they didn't let her get away with stuff. This filly sounds like she needs more training. This filly is not respecting you the biting is not good. If she even acts like she is trying to bite take your elbow and pop her in the nose. If she keeps doing it move her feet, back her, piviot her but really go after her don't be nice about it. Then just rub her like nothing happened.

 

[Earthology]

It was the first time I have ever used treats. I bought them today. I won't be using them again until after we are done, like Minimor stated.

I agree, she definitly needs ground manners! Sweet natured girl, but she really hasn't been worked with too much.

Today I bought a trailer lead. Short & adjustable. I hooked her to the fence. She was on one side, I was on the other. (she had enough room to move her head freely a good deal, but not enough room to turn around and bite me, although she did try once).

SHE DID NOT LIKE IT!

She is a sweet natured horse overall, Love her. WOW! She thought she was trapped. I tried my best not to let her get away with it. It was quite an ordeal.

She kept fidgeting her feet, desperate to "get out." She kept leaning on me, frantic: but I did not let her out. On the few times that she actually pushed me out far enough that her tail end was able to swing around, I made her swing it back. I noticed at one point she was licking her lips, so I seized that opportunity to praise her. It didn't seem to last long.at that point: as soon as I quit petting her and moved away from her a tiny bit, she began leaning again and squirming trying to get free... UGH! Give a horse an inch, and they take a mile?

She did try biting once, I bopped her (not too hard) on the face. I didn't mean to do it, it was kind of knee-jerk reaction. I felt horrible. I noticed before, when I first brought her home that she pulls away from face scratches/petting (she is better with accepting them now). Perhaps this means previous owners bopped her on the face too? I'd much rather go with her shoulder for a bopping if possible though.

From what it sounds like, it was rare for her to even see other horse having their hooves picked. And she is three!

Going on, I hated doing this, but was fearful that she would think she can win everytime. I wanted to keep going until she calmed down.

Once she would calm down at first, I would try petting her. She would shake a bit. Finally, she would relax. Then, I would try for her feet----> AS SOON as I got to her front knee, she was freaked out again! Leaning and squirming trying to get loose. She never bucked or reared though.

I decided not to push it too much. I gave up on the feet and decided to just stick with training her to accept the position of being between me and a fence. CLARIFICATION: I was NOT squishing her up against the fence. I was just trying to get her to stand sideways right beside it and be comfortable with me on the other side. She hated it.

When she would panic, I could see her breathing rate go up... Ears back. When she finally calmed down. I praised her, pet her, made her stay there and then unlocked the lead, walked her in a big circle and then put her right back.

She would begin the process again. She would freak out. BUT! her panicking periods didn't last as long, which felt "right" to me. She was getting used to it, because I wasn't letting her get away with it.

I think this is good training because what if my daughter ever makes her feel a bit "trapped?" NOT GOOD! Again, it just goes with ground manners, in my opinion.

At the same time, it made me feel bad. But she is NOT willing to let me just stand beside her in an open area and pick her hooves. And, as the saying goes: "no hoof, no horse!" It has to be done.

My hope is that within a week she will accept standing in this position. Once I can get her to stand there calmy, I will begin working with picking up her hooves. With all of her LEANING and squirming there was NO WAY I could pick up her feet, WE WOULD HAVE BOTH FALLEN OVER.

So, PLEASE do tell me what you think about how all of this went. If you have any suggestions as to what I could have done differently, please do let me know.

I could maybe even video record her reactions if that would help assist with any advice?

***I will also begin working on things like backing, getting her to move her feet.

 

[K Sera]

I know this is not possible for everyone or every situation but all of mine are used to being "crosstied". I was so used to that back in my younger days when we boarded our large horses at a ranch up north ... to "crosstie" all the horses in the aisle while we groomed, etc... that is has always just been the thing to do since. I have several areas set up in the barn between two posts and also have drivin makeshift posts using "T" posts and covered them with padding just in case someone gets a little spooky so as not to hurt themselves. This keeps them fairly straight, keeps their head inline and from coming back to "bite". They know when I put them in the crossties that it's time for grooming, bodyclip, etc.... and they stand nice for me. I also have a thick stall mat underneath from TSC.

My stallion used to try and grab me while I was bent over ...I do my own hoof trimming also. I just give him a loud buzzer type sound and tell him NO, and he learned real quick that was off limits! He kicked me once as a yearly ... I quickly gave him a swift kick back and that was that! He's a sweetheart!

All my mini's were young and I pretty much trained them up with the manners they have, so prior owners bad habits have not been too much of an issue, really ..... if owned previous .... no issues. No treats until we are done and they know it! They readily are caught, love to come up and get crosstied, stand nicely and I have no problems but it took a little patience to show them what was expected and they love the attention at the "beauty salon"

 

[Earthology]

Also, that is what I had been doing for the last too weeks: just getting her to let me hold her hoof. When she would, I would let it go and praise her. I was hoping by this point that I would alredy be able to pick her hooves. But since the previous owner said, and I quote "She never offered to bite before. We only had the farrier do her hooves. She was great for him."

I'm not sure what to believe. 1) they didn't pick her hooves on a daily basis, or so it seems, because she said "we only had the farrier do her hooves." So that tells me that at age THREE she is NOT used to it. In her stall on bedding, on the grass, on cement: she tries to pull away, even if she is standing squarely & has good balance.

2) with that, how did she act good for a farrier? If I try to pick up her feet in an open area, she tries to nip instantly or get away... Next to a fence, she acts like she is going to be ate by a lion.

& I DID! I walked out and had confidence! I was the boss. But she is PETRIFIED!

Tomorrow I will try with my boyfriend standing at her head.

OYE!!! Perhaps crossties WOULD work better? Well... Maybe not for her... Because she tries to swing from side to side to get away. I honestly think because of this I should stick to having the fence on one side and me on the other side.......

 

[K Sera]

On a side note ... I have at times put a large muck bucket I use to carry hay out in front, with hay in it, to keep them busy, while I mess with them ... the ones that may fidget ....the problem with giving treats is that they are going to paw and fidget and not stand still unless you give them something to do and sometimes giving them some hay to munch on keeps them busy and their mind on something else while you talk to them and work on picking up their feet and putting them down and letting them know it's now a big deal. Just something I have tried and it worked for me in the past .....

 

[Earthology]

On a side note ... I have at times put a large muck bucket I use to carry hay out in front, with hay in it, to keep them busy, while I mess with them ... the ones that may fidget ....the problem with giving treats is that they are going to paw and fidget and not stand still unless you give them something to do and sometimes giving them some hay to munch on keeps them busy and their mind on something else while you talk to them and work on picking up their feet and putting them down and letting them know it's now a big deal. Just something I have tried and it worked for me in the past .....

Thanks K Sera!

I will work towards that too. Her previous owner fed her grass hay, which she LOVED. The previous owner gave her a flake while I was there and I watched her go crazy for it. I have timothy, which she is now eating but still isn't crazy about.

Hmmmm. As awful as it sounds? Maybe I could keep her pinned up for the next few days. She would have her boring timoth hay only. During hoof picking time, I could (UGH) have a bucket of pasture grass hand picked for her, put into bucket.... And that would occupy her mind while I work?

Problem is, that would work BEAUTIFULLY if it was summer... But in winter: It would take me way tooooo long to find & collect enough grass...

I could buy those alfalfa chunks though and pre-soak them... Or beet pulp? Perhaps if I got her eating, she would let me work... Overtime she would get used to the process of having her hooves picked, and eventually I would be able to pick hooves without her throwing a temper tantrum?

 

[Katiean]

Today I had a farrier out. The first time in almost a year. I have been doing my own horses. Anyway, they all didn't like someone else working on them. They are used to being tied to a post in the outside corner of the stall and I move them as I need. At the new barn we have cross ties. I put them in the cross ties and held the lead. My worst is Ellie. She has a bad attitude and just doesn't like to stand for anything. She NEVER has. Anyway, when she would act up I would pat or tap on her for head (not a lot of hand movement). I also rubbed over her eyes and just generally messed with her face. The poor guy worked for 3 hours on 4 horses (he did his job right). When she was good I just stood and talked to her. When she threw a fit, I patted and rubbed. What the patting and rubbing does is takes their attention off of their feet. You are not disciplining or rewarding. Just getting their attention. It made things so much easier on the farrier. They tend to not lean on you and don't try to get their feet away from you. You totally have their attention on the person at their head. Soon they totally forget about what is happening with their feet and you can just go out and clean their feet. It has always worked for me.

 

[K Sera]

I give them their boring hay .... the other stuff would be a treat! Just looking to keep their mind off of what you are doing and keep them busy. They seem to get bored with the hay and just stand there after they figure out it's no big deal! It's there if they want something to do while you're busy. Just an idea .... we all have our little tricks we share... Good luck and hang in there... just when you think you've lost your patience .... they seem to surprise us and cooperate!

Must be when the light comes on! LOL

 

[Earthology]

I hope things fall into place soon. This is no fun! I am a habitual worrier, so I am loosing the joy of owning her because I'm constantly worried about her hooves. I worry like crazy!

 

[K Sera]

Just when you think you are going to give up ... you stand there and realize that things are working out the way they should and all your struggles and frustration seem to fade away and you'll smile about it! The experience will just give you more little tricks to add to your basket for the next one! Hang in there, it will all work out, just when you want to give up, it will turn around for you! You'll see ... you already have!

 

[Minimor]

Meant to say earlier--do NOT worry so much about not being able to clean her hooves for a bit. Look at it this way--she obviously didn't have them cleaned daily up until she came to live with you--I assume she is still sound, her feet have not rotted off? Even if her feet get packed with dirt or manure, chances are very good that she is not going to get thrush.

When a horse hasn't had its feet handled much (or at all) it can definitely be a challenge to get them good about hoof trimming and even hoof cleaning. Start off slow, as you're doing--get her used to standing still while you work around her. I guess I'm not surprised that she got anxious when boxed in by the fence--she's lost her escape route & that makes her tense, even scared. It sounds like she's had less handling overall than I was thinking. Since she is so twitchy about having her lower legs handled, for starters just rub her legs. When she accepts rubbing, try to lift one up. Don't hold it for long when you do get one picked up--pick it up, let it down again.

I've only ever had two horses that would attempt to bite if they felt stressed. I generally just ignore the behavior. I am careful to not let the attempted bite connect with anything--If I'm lucky I might have my elbow positioned just right so the horse's muzzle connects with my elbow--I never moved, it was the horse's own doing, and I just ignore the whole thing. Both of my stress biters--I call them that because they are biting because they feel pressured, they want me to back off & leave them alone/give them their space--stopped trying to bite once they were more comfortable with being handled. I got one last year that initially had some issues with having her feet trimmed--thought she was going to kick my head off the first time I tried to trim her hind feet. I said fine, we're done for today, let her go & walked away. Tried again the next morning & she stood still & let me trim. She'd had enough the first day and there was no point fighting with her. The next time I trimmed her feet she was good about all 4. It's the same thing with trying to clean your mare's feet--take what you can get to start with. Start with a front foot. If she is good with that one, try the other front one. If she falls apart & won't let you work on that foot, there's absolutely nothing wrong with walking away and trying again tomorrow. you keep on trying and you both end up frustrated and upset. People will say you can't let her win, but I can say I've walked away from more than one tussle with a horse, then went back tomorrow for another try and made a lot more progress than I would have had I kept struggling with the issue the previous day. Walk away from the fight, finish up with something easy, and you've still ended on a good note.

 

[disneyhorse]

I agree treats should notbe used during this type of training.

Food can be a powerful reward, but for someone not very experienced, it may be more of a distraction and the horse will be more focused on getting the food than on you.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I would avoid pinning her against the wall while you are doing this. It sounds like she is way stressed out by doing it this way. Is she good with being tied? IMO you can't do it all at once, if she isn't liking being pinned in the fence then work with her on that first before you even think about working on her feet. Just work with her by pushing her butt towards the fence on both sides. If she won't move over with steady pressure then use driving pressure with your hand and smack her on the butt. Just one step over if thats all it takes reward it and rubb. Just find a starting point.

Don't worry about her feet being full of mud at this point. Just reach for a goal like let her be good when the farrier comes down next time. I know they say that you should clean out your horse's feet every day but it's not going to kill them if you don't every so often. It's defintelly good practice and I imagine the previous owners never cleaned her feet out and only the farrier did it.

Remeber you don't need to get all this done in one day. The important thing is to leave on a good note. If she is doing better by letting you hold the leg then I recommend tapping her foot with your hand or hoof pick, seems to help first before you start picking it.

 

[Earthology]

That's where I keep gettin confused: "don't let them win" versus "walk away for the day." Overall she does pretty good on a lead: just basic walking anyways. But yes, indeed she does need alot of work. Typically she isn't spooky at all. Nice & gentle... Until I want to play with the hooves.

Sometimes she lets me pick them up for 3-4 seconds with out issues. I let them go to the ground with no problem and praise. I have been doing that part for two weeks. I thought that by now I would be able to hold the hoof up longer. She says "no way."

I will still keep working to get her to stand with me on one side and her on the other side. I want her to see I am not going to hurt her.

To me the only training she has had before seems like: humans are nice. The bring food.... They walk me around...

And thats it... Well... Apparently she trusted her Farrier of three years and learned that he was the only person she needed to trust with her legs because he was the only person who ever really messed with her. She was in a Large group of about 10 other minis. That was it. Not too much interaction, but enough that she is still decent overall.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

You don't want her to win with her getting her leg away from you, thats what she wants, but you don't have to get the whole process done in one day, if that makes sense. If she is good with you holding her leg 3-4 seconds then try 5-6 and then drop. If it takes baby steps then thats whats going to take but you have to try and ask for better each time, avoid going backwards.

What you may want to do is just work with her on the ground first before you try again with the feet. Get her respect first and will go a lot easier in the long run. Or work with her on the ground first and when she has your attention and is a lil worn out work with picking up her legs. If she starts and tries to move then stop and really hustle her feet, then try again.

 

[Earthology]

As I wrote above, no she is not good with just being tied. She tries to get away: swinging her back end away, which puts me in the kick zone sometimes (she hasn't tried kicking yet). That is why someone gave me the tip to attach a small lead to the fence. Fence on one side, me on the other side, therefore she can't swing away.

She didn't like it. So I wrote that I would try to keep gradually working on this method of trusting me on one side of her, then fence on the other side. I stopped touching her legs completely. When she relaxed she was rewarded, we walked in a big circle and then tried again: that is, fence on one side, me on the other side. Again, no touching her legs. Once she calmed down, I freed her and we walked in a big circle. Slowly she was starting to relax. I think it is the only option right now. It prevents her from swinging away. It will build trust if I take it easy and go slowly from what I understand.

Once she can stand there caly from the beginning to the end and feels comfortable, I will begin petting her legs. After she is comfortable with the legs being petted, I will resume asking her to pick up her hooves.

Starting tomorrow I will also use the tip on putting some hay in front of her to hopefully occupy her mind as well.

I am really glad I wrote the original post. I have learned so much!