Update on Aurora

[MiLo Minis]

I am a little confused over this.................

Milo Minis
I can assure you that there will be no more "accidental" pregnancies for this mare. IF and only IF she gets to the point where she is healthy and strong enough to carry a foal will she ever be bred again.

Firstly (to all) bob has previously stated how this pregnancy came to be......................yet people are still accusing him of doing it on purpose (I do not know if this was your intention Lori by typing "accident" as shown, but there were certainly others that have implied this)! I personally was not present so am unable to say one way or the other what happened, but I do know this........................IT IS BOB'S BUSINESS AND ONLY BOB'S BUSINESS! IF he chose to get Tonto and Aurora together IT'S HIS BUSINESS..............IF Bob chooses to get Tonto & Aurora together at a later date ALSO Bob's business! It is one thing to help out here but telling people what to do is another! A good example of this below.........

runamuk Posted Today, 04:02 PM
OH Lori I am so sorry to hear that. Poor Aurora.....How is her COPD (heaves)? isn't she an older mare? I would say this sounds like a fine time for her to retire from mom duties. hugs to you and to the mare.......you are a real gem.

Again only BOB'S decisions.................! :no:

To my mind there are really no such things as accidents. Things happen because people set them up to happen. Bob stalled this mare beside a stallion with only a short dividing wall between them. Did Tonto jump this wall and impregnate Aurora? I don't know - I wasn't there. He tells me that Tonto did and so I accept him at his word but was it an accident? I don't feel that he took proper precautions to prevent Tonto from getting to Aurora. Will that situation be rectified before Aurora returns to him - YES if I have anything to say about it. Aurora is in no condition to be getting pregnant again any time soon if ever. Did Bob realize that Tonto would go to that length to get in with Aurora - NO I don't think he did. He has seen my stallion stall and I think he knows better now.

If you have ever seen a mare with full blown heaves you would not be wanting that mare to become pregnant either. I think runamuk was merely making an educated suggestion in an attempt to be helpful. How can you find fault with that? There are many complications that can arise during pregnancy concerning heaves. Aurora at this point happens to be in a good place with her condition but I was fully expecting to see her extremely heavey when she arrived - she wasn't thankfully and that was due to Bob getting proper veterinary care for her condition.

Yes what happens to Aurora is Bob's business and his decision but I am hoping that with some education he will be able to make a better and more informed decision that will take into consideration Aurora's best interests - that may or may not mean that she will be a momma in future.

 

[FoRebel]

Bob, Sorry for the loss of the foal... There are many of us that know how hard it is! :no:

Lori, Thanks for being there to help Bob and Aurora out!

As for the "Bob Bashing"... DIDN'T YOUR MOTHERS EVER TELL YOU THAT IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING NICE TO SAY TO SAY NOTHING AT ALL!????

: Yes, I admit.... I was one that was furious when I saw the pictures that Bob had posted and had posted a nice but not so nice comment about the pictures. I also went back and read most of Bob's threads and got my questions answered after I had jumped the gun and yelled at Bob (Very sorry about that, Bob!) ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! BOB JUST LOST HIS FIRST FOAL! LEAVE THE POOR GUY ALONE! No one else would want to be yelled at after just having lost a foal! :no:

My advice is GIVE IT UP AND MOVE ON!

Once again Bob, very sorry for your loss and very sorry for yelling at you in the previous post! HUGS!!!!

 

[tagalong]

At least one of the other know-it-alls has not replied to this thread, and I'm happy to see that. I just wish you two would have stayed the heck out of it. ENOUGH ALREADY!!! LEAVE BOB ALONE!!!! NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS AND WE ARE SICK OF SEEING THEM.

You know - it strikes me that some who are busy yelling at others for being rude - are acting that way themselves - and worse. Pot Kettle Black, anyone? The entire quote above is totally uncalled for. And ALL opinions count - not just the opinions of those who WANT TO SHOUT OTHERS DOWN. And think that they and only they should be heard... please think again.

Scroll past/ignore posts you do not care for. I have been on assorted message boards for many years - on a variety of topics - and that usually works best...

Little jabs like this?

Give it time Sunny, probably asleep lol

Also uncalled for IMHO. What is this, grade school? Oh wait.... I forgot to LOL.

Bob - saying that you would "try again" was guaranteed to get some people upset. Can you understand that? Please consider just enjoying Aurora as she is - with no further pregnancies to aggravate her health... and perhaps you two will have many pleasant years ahead to enjoy...

..............IF Bob chooses to get Tonto & Aurora together at a later date ALSO Bob's business! It is one thing to help out here but telling people what to do is another!

There is nothing wrong with offering suggestions - as I did above... and as others have done. That is what a forum like this is all about. And what we do here to help each other. We care. So sorry if that offends....

Yes what happens to Aurora is Bob's business and his decision but I am hoping that with some education he will be able to make a better and more informed decision that will take into consideration Aurora's best interests - that may or may not mean that she will be a momma in future.

Well said, MiLo.

You should all take a leaf from Marty's book and think twice about how you are wording your post BEFORE you post it. There are ways to be helpful and not hurtful and after all that is what this forum is all about - HELPING OTHERS WITH THEIR MINIS!!!

Exactly right - that ^^^ works BOTH ways - and includes those who smugly tell others what to do (shut up, go away) while lecturing about how others should not tell others what to do (still with me? I know it is confusing) and SHOUT about it...

:no:

[SIZE=8pt]edited for crummy spelling...[/SIZE]

 

[Girrawheen]

tagalong Posted Today, 07:09 PM

Quote SunnyAt least one of the other know-it-alls has not replied to this thread, and I'm happy to see that. I just wish you two would have stayed the heck out of it. ENOUGH ALREADY!!! LEAVE BOB ALONE!!!! NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR OPINIONS AND WE ARE SICK OF SEEING THEM.

Quote tagalongYou know - it strikes me that some who are busy yelling at others for being rude - are acting that way themselves - and worse. Pot Kettle Black, anyone? The entire quote above is totally uncalled for. And ALL opinions count - not just the opinions of those who WANT TO SHOUT OTHERS DOWN. And think that they and only they should be heard... please think again.

Sunny has every right to defend Bob as she wishes, and would not have to defend him at all if the "BAG BOB" gang did not enter any of his related topics to start with. A foal has just passed and this has turned into, once again, a put down session on Bob! I feel you are wrong when you say all opinions count! There is a time and a place for everything and this was not it!

Bob...I don't know what on earth you are thinking, but ANY respect for you or your feelings for these horses just went out the window! If your first thoughts and first words are to give this poor old "rescue" mare with heaves that has been to heck and back already a short break and then "try again".....man, you need your head examined!!! You bred this mare on purpose when she was already in bad condition and just stated your full intention on doing it again??? OMG!!!!! How about thinking of the horse FIRST?!?!?!?! I am just sick over this...not only is this attitude sickening and self-centered, but it is also a smack in the face to everyone who has tried to help you and Aurora--esp. Lori who has been dealing with the repercusions of YOUR actions....or inactions!!!
This post has been edited by FairytailGlennMinis: Today, 07:26 AM

That is just flat out harsh! My mouth hit the ground when I read this insensitive post..........really, really bad timing! Have you ever heard of a PM or did you enjoy making a spectacle out of Bob on the forum for all to see?

tagalong
Bob - saying that you would "try again" was guaranteed to get some people upset. Can you understand that? Please consider just enjoying Aurora as she is - with no further pregnancies to aggravate her health... and perhaps you two will have many pleasant years ahead...

again.........why do people feel the need to give advice that is not warranted or wanted? Keep it to yourself! A simple condolence would have sufficed!

tagalong
There is nothing wrong with offering suggestions - as I did above... and as others have done. That is what a forum like this is all about. And what we do here to help each other. We care. So sorry if that offends....

You know what? That absolutely offends! "WE CARE"............what a crock of !@#*! There are certain individuals on this forum that definitely do NOT care to much for Bob or his horses and they have let that be quite clearly known! These are the same individuals who have started the trouble here, so if you are looking at trouble makers or grade school students as you call them, that is where you should be looking!

This thread started out as it should have (condolences etc) yet slowly but surely ended up as all Bob's previous topics have (and he did not even start this one)! Bob is a grown man and deserves RESPECT! IF you do not agree with me, that is absolutely fine, however I suggest you just move right on by and stop causing trouble by posting.

How about we remember the beautiful foal that died here instead of trashing Bob

 

[tagalong]

You know what? That absolutely offends! "WE CARE"............what a crock of !@#*! There are certain individuals on this forum that definitely do NOT care to much for Bob or his horses and they have let that be quite clearly known! These are the same individuals who have started the trouble here, so if you are looking at trouble makers or grade school students as you call them, that is where you should be looking!

NO - it is not a crock of @#$%. You are offended by my saying that people care??!! Unbelievable.

I am offended that you insist on finding fault with those who express concern for Aurora's health and well-being... something I am also sure that Bob is concerned about..

To quote MiLo/Lori...

If you have ever seen a mare with full blown heaves you would not be wanting that mare to become pregnant either. I think runamuk was merely making an educated suggestion in an attempt to be helpful. How can you find fault with that?

EVERYONE here cares about the horses or they would not be here.

And after my comments/concerns about rudeness... there was truly no need to come back with more of the same.

I feel you are wrong when you say all opinions count! There is a time and a place for everything and this was not it!

Bolding mine. And my jaw dropped when I read that. Who are you to decide whose opinions count and whose do not? Where did I - or many others - bash Bob? NOWHERE. Nor would I.

A message board/forum is made up of many different views, input from many sources, and a mix of opinions that we all can learn from. It is all those different thoughts that make a message board informative, interesting and helpful... that can make you laugh, cry, rage, nod, cheer - and teach you something along the way.

IF you do not agree with me, that is absolutely fine, however I suggest you just move right on by and stop causing trouble by posting.

Bolding mine - again. And I respectfully suggest that you try not to tell others how and where to post - and label them as troublemakers. We have moderators who do that

: - there is no need for self-appointed mods.

If there is a poster you do not care for - the scroll button/bar is your friend..

:

I did not berate Bob or bash him. I offered my suggestion - and it was just a suggestion... which would be not to "try again" and simply enjoy Aurora. The loss of a foal is a sad thing - but as responsible breeders, we need to realize that our actions do not guarantee that there will be a healthy, happy foal in 300 plus days. Things go wrong. Often tragically so. And unfortunately - this was one of those times....

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

I will post one last time on this and leave it alone. Again, my heart goes out to all for the loss of this foal. I too have been there. I should not have posted when I was angry, but I was angry indeed. I am one who cares about Aurora more than anything else in this situation. I am also one who knows a lot more to the story...as do many who were able to control their own anger and withold from posting. I do not care one whit about Bob and am not a Bob basher....I am an Aurora supporter. My only concern is for her. Lori--thank you so very much for everything you have done and are doing. Thank goodness you can be more diplomatic than I. My worry turned anger overcome my mouth.

 

[ChrystalPaths]

Quite simply....Aurora is a mare of age and has a medical condition (heaves) that compromises her health not to mention the health of an unborn foal as we have just seen. I also was a bit taken back when he said better luck next time (so to speak). Aurora doesn't want another child, she just wants to be a beloved pet. fussed with and coddled, and that is exactly what she should be. Bash me if you must but my cares are for the horses.

 

[Jill]

I'm so sorry for Aurora, Bob and you :no:

Also sorry that some people just can't help but look for an opportunity to pass judgement on others.

 

[RobinRTrueJoy]

I am so sorry, I hate to hear that. I hope that your mare is doing well, poor baby.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Quite simply....Aurora is a mare of age and has a medical condition (heaves) that compromises her health not to mention the health of an unborn foal as we have just seen

I am not going to wade into the personal side of Aurora and Bob. I know what I would do in this case if I owned Aurora but I don't own her, Bob does and that is something that has to be remembered. If Bob wants to go and get Aurora today or tomorrow... he has that right. If someone is totally opposed to that then it's up to them to deal through the proper channels and have the authorities involved which they may or may not agree that the mare should not be returned to her owner. So as much as anyone says things one way or the other it's not in anyones hands except her "owner".

I find the quote above misleading in the sense that heaves in this case compromised the health of the unborn foal and was the cause of the "red bag" delivery. I don't believe this is true because how many people have had mares with a red-bag delivery and these mares had no previous compromising health issues. Do we know what causes red-bag deliveries for sure?. People keep speaking about fescue toxicity as being the culprit for this but I think there is alot more to the "red-bag" syndrome than we know or even veterinarians know at this point. So I don't think it's a fair statement to say that because this mare had heaves this compromised the health of foal and the result was a red bag delivery. I don't buy that argument. Now having said that I did do some reading about heaves and the pregnant mare and the one instance that this veterinarian recommended the mare not be bred was because of the aggressive meds the mare was on for treatment of "severe heaves"

We can all continue to point fingers at each other or at Bob, etc. etc. but suffice to say everyone is entitlted to their opinion of the situation but you know what, it's not going to help anyone in the end and certainly not Aurora!

This entire thread and what has been said here has me thinking about a few questions such as

How many of you have mares that are this age and that you still use in your breeding program? I am not taking Bob's side, nor those of you who are voicing negatively towards Bob, I just want to see both sides here.

How many of those who have mares of this age and who do use them still in their breeding programs and if so have you ever encountered complication during birthing?

How many of you who have mares of this age and who are or were pregnant, were more difficult to keep in good flesh due to their metabolism at this age. Meaning you would feed them even MORE than other pregnant mares.

How many of you have minis (no matter what gender) who have heaves and are on medication?

How many of you have minis (no matter what gender) who have heaves and are hard keepers because of the condition?

Perhaps the answers to these question will help "educate" us all and avoid circumstances that Aurora found herself in.

There is no point looking back now, what is done is done but what can be changed is what is ahead and that is what everyone should be looking at, otherwise all just becomes "destructive" and that isn't going to help one iota.

 

[SHANA]

Bob, no matter what other people say or do, you did what was best for Aurora and I know how a unplanned breeding can occur as it happened to me with a arabian colt who was born in 2000 and he jumped the fence and got in with his half sister in 2001 and bred her. He was only with her a few hours at most before we spotted the escape artist and in 2002 my mare had a gorgeous colt that did well in halter and beat yearlings for Reserve Jr Champion colt at 2 months of age. I sold him cheap to a great home who had him gelded. He is actually one of the better arabian foals I bred. I also know how hard it is to lose your first mini foal as I to lost my first mini foal due to a dystocia, vet was called and he only lived 5 minutes away from me at the time but is 40 minutes away now since I moved and he could not save the foal but did save the mare who foaled a gorgeous colt in 2006. So it'll all work out. Lori will get Aurora better I am sure. I have only heard great things about Lori. I am sorry you loss your first foal and hope Aurora can have another foal for you once she is better.

 

[Buckskin gal]

I have read this whole thread and I can't add anyhting or take anything away other than if Bob asked Debs to do a reading on Aurora and Aurora told her , "she doesn't want another child" I would think Bob would really take the words from the horses mouth and do as requested.

: Mary

Quite simply....Aurora is a mare of age and has a medical condition (heaves) that compromises her health not to mention the health of an unborn foal as we have just seen. I also was a bit taken back when he said better luck next time (so to speak). Aurora doesn't want another child, she just wants to be a beloved pet. fussed with and coddled, and that is exactly what she should be. Bash me if you must but my cares are for the horses.

 

[tagalong]

Danielle - I will take a stab at your questions - even if someone blasts in here and tells me to shut up and go away. I will relate them to the mares of all sizes that I have worked with during the past 18 years...

How many of you have mares that are this age and that you still use in your breeding program

Aurora is... 18/19 I gather? I worked with many mares of all sizes that age or older - who IMHO should not have been bred (but I just worked there) ... and many of them had a tough time both during the foaling and afterwards - even when they were in good condition. It is an individual thing - dependant on that particular mare's health and foaling history. Anything that compromised their health - especially a chronic condition such as heaves - only complicated matters. Equally - some of those older girls never batted an eyelash... never lost condition (but had LOTS of feed) and raised their foals with no problems. However - none of them had any health issues of any kind.

One memorable night... I was all alone on duty - when an elderly TB mare started to foal. She strained, she pushed, I pulled... the foal was right there - but she was running out of steam. I begged, I pleaded, I smacked her on her butt to rouse her and get her pushing again... she was exhausted to the point of no return and the foal was not out. The middle of February. The roads choked with snow. No vet for at least 2 hours... the mare finally simply gave up. She gave it her all - she had no more. And without her help - I could not get that foal out of there...

The vet arrived later - as soon as he could... and we managed to remove the foal. The mare was too exhausted to notice - or care. She did recover - but was very wobbly for a few days. When the breeding lists were being composed for the spring - and her name was on them - we three who worked there had a bit of a mutiny. *cough*

Her name was removed... and she was allowed to spend her summer lazing in the sun...

How many of you who have mares of this age and who are or were pregnant, were more difficult to keep in good flesh due to their metabolism at this age. Meaning you would feed them even MORE than other pregnant mares.

The older mares I have worked with (both big horses and minis) have had a variety of issues - and finding the balance to keep them healthy and in good weight could be a tricky thing - based on the individual. Some needed more feed and attention than others. Actually - the hardest part was keeping them in condition when the foal was at heel and dragging them down. The weight seemed to melt off many of those older girls... in particular one older Standardbred mare with heaves... and it was a constant battle to keep them in good shape until that foal could be weaned - ASAP.

All the older broodmares required a lot more feed than their younger counterparts.

How many of you have minis (no matter what gender) who have heaves and are hard keepers because of the condition?

I have only dealt with two heavey minis. One - a gelding - got fat on air. Or so it seemed.

: The other was a mare - who was not what I would call a hard keeper - but she needed a bit more attention. She was never bred. Age added on to heaves would require a great deal of extra feed and special attention...

Again - every case is best examined as per the individual horse involved...

:

 

[Magic]

I will answer these questions, though I have limited experience with heaves in horses (one full size horse when I was younger) but they are good questions. Perhaps start a new thread with them?

This entire thread and what has been said here has me thinking about a few questions such as

How many of you have mares that are this age and that you still use in your breeding program? I am not taking Bob's side, nor those of you who are voicing negatively towards Bob, I just want to see both sides here. I currently have just one mare of this age or older, she is 23. I got her when she was 20 years old and in foal; she did great (though needed a LOT of feed to keep her weight up while nursing) and I did breed her back, just once, and she settled and carried her foal to term. Although she is very healthy, I felt she was getting dragged down just a little too much and at her age, deserved to retire. IMO I think that it would be a very individual decision for each mare, based on her health, etc

How many of those who have mares of this age and who do use them still in their breeding programs and if so have you ever encountered complication during birthing? I've not encountered complications from birthing in older mares, but I still remember vividly of a forum member's older mare that had never had a problem and then foaled unexpectedly early and both the mare and foal were lost. You just never know.

How many of you who have mares of this age and who are or were pregnant, were more difficult to keep in good flesh due to their metabolism at this age. Meaning you would feed them even MORE than other pregnant mares. Very much so. I had to keep my older mares separated from the other horses at feeding time, as they tended to eat more slowly, and many times were not too high on the pecking order, and they needed LOTS more feed.

How many of you have minis (no matter what gender) who have heaves and are on medication?I don't

How many of you have minis (no matter what gender) who have heaves and are hard keepers because of the condition?N/A

Perhaps the answers to these question will help "educate" us all and avoid circumstances that Aurora found herself in.

There is no point looking back now, what is done is done but what can be changed is what is ahead and that is what everyone should be looking at, otherwise all just becomes "destructive" and that isn't going to help one iota.

Perhaps we could start a new thread, and ask exactly how much feed that people give their "hard keeper" mares during mid-pregnancy, late-pregnancy, and lactation? My oldest mare is currently fed as much as my in-late-pregnancy mares to keep her in good flesh, and she isn't even pregnant. It may be surprising to find out how much feed some older horses need.

 

[ChrystalPaths]

I have read this whole thread and I can't add anyhting or take anything away other than if Bob asked Debs to do a reading on Aurora and Aurora told her , "she doesn't want another child" I would think Bob would really take the words from the horses mouth and do as requested.

: Mary

Quite simply....Aurora is a mare of age and has a medical condition (heaves) that compromises her health not to mention the health of an unborn foal as we have just seen. I also was a bit taken back when he said better luck next time (so to speak). Aurora doesn't want another child, she just wants to be a beloved pet. fussed with and coddled, and that is exactly what she should be. Bash me if you must but my cares are for the horses.

Buckskingal...I have a mare colicing right now but wanted to check here real quick and I thank you very much. When I saw her pic she did speak to me in pictures like they do for me. She is just too tired and old to want to have a baby. She compared it to me at 52 finding out I was PG. And like her heaves, I have asthma. Holey shi! but what's girl to do and she tried to carry it. Honest to God, she does not want to be bred, she just wants to be beloved and spoiled. I swear on my late father's life this is true.

 

[Mona]

Danielle, a "red bag" in a premature delivery is often related to the mare aborting before full term. It is actually quite common for the foal to come out in the bag that way. I have had it happen here in a late term abortion also. A red bag is not always the cause of outside forces, such as fescue etc.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Bob I am very sorry for your loss.

LOri I am sorry you had to go thru that we all know how tough it is and how helpless it can make you feel

As to those who breed mares and who should and shouldnt there is a different answer for everyone. Personally I wouldnt put a mare on regumate to get her to keep a pregnancy. I dont think it is cruel or wrong I just think FOR ME if she is unable to maintain a pregnancy without it I dont need to breed her JMO

As far as the heaves goes.. a vet just looked at this mare what 10 days ago 2 weeks ago? and said that he could hardly find any evidence of her heaves so obviously in THIS CASE WITH THIS MARE it wasnt an issue even with her in foal a couple of weeks ago. I would doubt that suddenly it caused her to abort with a red bag so quickly

Every horse and every case is different.

I have a mare here who we rescued she was said to have heaves when we got her and badly at that according to there vet. I have yet to see any signs of it and with my vets agreement we plan to breed her in the spring. She has been here I think 3 years now maybe 2 I cant remember exactly at the moment. She was horribly thin and in bad shape so bad the transporters werent sure she would survive the trip so we have waited this long to breed her to make sure she was healthy, in good body weight and showed no signs of heaves.

Just goes to show we all have different opinions on what is right and wrong for us and our horses

 

[Devon]

Bob I am very sorry for your loss.

LOri I am sorry you had to go thru that we all know how tough it is and how helpless it can make you feel

As to those who breed mares and who should and shouldnt there is a different answer for everyone. Personally I wouldnt put a mare on regumate to get her to keep a pregnancy. I dont think it is cruel or wrong I just think FOR ME if she is unable to maintain a pregnancy without it I dont need to breed her JMO

As far as the heaves goes.. a vet just looked at this mare what 10 days ago 2 weeks ago? and said that he could hardly find any evidence of her heaves so obviously in THIS CASE WITH THIS MARE it wasnt an issue even with her in foal a couple of weeks ago. I would doubt that suddenly it caused her to abort with a red bag so quickly

Every horse and every case is different.

I have a mare here who we rescued she was said to have heaves when we got her and badly at that according to there vet. I have yet to see any signs of it and with my vets agreement we plan to breed her in the spring. She has been here I think 3 years now maybe 2 I cant remember exactly at the moment. She was horribly thin and in bad shape so bad the transporters werent sure she would survive the trip so we have waited this long to breed her to make sure she was healthy, in good body weight and showed no signs of heaves.

Just goes to show we all have different opinions on what is right and wrong for us and our horses

Well Said Lisa Well Said.

:

 

[Ashley]

I must add. We had a mare who was 18 when she went to live with a child for the rest of her days. She was 18 going on 19 when she left her(who happen to be in foal even thou we didnt know it). She hadnt produced in about 3 years prior. Who had heaves. She was fat and sassy never needing extra, more like a diet.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Thank you to those who answered my questions. I don't have an aged mini yet and the arabian that I have in my care, the rescue who is now 30 years young, is the only experience I have had with the "vintage" years. Of course I would never breed the arabian at this age even though you won't believe that 3 years ago when she came to me someone examined her pedigree and said "you should breed that mare...." and I thought "are you crazy". I understand that in human years she is like 85 years old now. Also thank you for the information about heaves. I am reading all the material I can get my hands on in order to try and ensure that I don't contribute to the chance of any of minis or full size horses ever acquiring this disease. Thanks Mona about the "red-bag" information. As you know we lost "Abby's" first foal two years ago and in hindsight and remembering how "thin" the foal was at birth (didn't get out of the sac) I think that Abby did have a "red-bag" delivery and the foal was "thin" because the placenta had started to detach before the actual birth took place.