What IS the difference between Country Pleasure

[angelridge]

Didnt want to hi-jack Samis thread on the seminar (wish it was over here).

But I would like opinions on what your idea of the difference between a CPD and SPD horse. And if you have them please post pix!

To me, the CPD horse is a nice easy stride, and reaching out, working well off the rear, vertical head set, light or off the check, making it look like the horse is a Pleasure to drive.

SPD, head up on the check a little ahead of vertical, snappy knees and hocks, lifting and breaking at the knees, really working off the rear. making it look like the horse is fun and a little hot, and a bit of a handful.

And now another question,, I would like to see more people driving, we have had to travel to the Julep cup just to get enough points to qualify as there are only 1 or 2 CPD horses per class at the local regular shows.

At least with the new 1/2 point rule, it will not be as hard to qualify.

But do any of you think people do not show in CPD becuase of the horses who are SP and shown in CP and do place ahead of the CPD horses? (rumors and talk at the shows) I have actually seen a horse shown in SPD at a show (and rightly so IMO),, and then a while later seen the same horse in CPD becuase it did not place in SPD.

Is this a judgeing issue? Do you think the judges really know or are they picking what looks good??

That is what I have heard at shows too! No offense judges,, just looking for answers.

Any judges lurking,, PLEASE tell us what your opinion is!

Sorry so long,, just bored today and was pondering this myself. I hope this doesnt get to heated,, I am looking for topics of discussion, opinions and learning. Not wanting a 3 alarm.

My pic of a Country Pleasure Driving horse.

Angie

 

[CLC Stables]

You and I have the same thoughts.

Gosh our country classes here are HUGE.................and the single pleasure classes also. That is a trend I have noticed though...........the main driving seems to come from the NW and the Midwest..............the east is the halter world.

JUST MY OPINION.

 

[horsefeather]

Yes, Angelrideg, I agree with your thoughts. Like Rob, we have lots of driving horses in our shows, both country and pleasure. Unfortunately, I do believe a lot of the problem is with the judging. Please don't jump all over me, as my husband is a judge, but I have been to enough shows to see that lots and lots of 'pleasure' horses are placing over the true country horse. My hubby says to him a country pleasure horse should be one you could hook up, drive down to the mailbox, get out and get the mail and go for a nice afternoon drive if you wanted to. The pleasure horse (this is MY opinion) is really NOT a pleasure to drive. So many of them seem like they would like to explode at any time (and certainly have seen my share of exploding ones at the shows, scares me to death to). I have seen many place when the overcheck has been extremely tight. I think one of the problems is the rule says "reasonably loose" and what may be reasonable to one person may not be to another. I drive in both classes, but much prefer the country one! Maybe someday we can get back to the 'true' CP horse! Hope so.

Pam

 

[Miniv]

Hmmmm...... If what Angie and Rob are saying is true, things haven't changed a whole lot in the last 5 years.

Wasn't there an AMHA rule change at some point where a horse could not be cross-entered between Single Pleasure and Country Pleasure? I take it that AMHR doesn't have the same rule?

MA

 

[disneyhorse]

Your horse looks like an ideal CP horse. Pleasure horses are checked up high and are expected to have a lot of knee action usually. Country horses have more flat kneed extenstion, are not checked up as high, and are expected to have better manners.

I don't know about AMHA but I have seen in AMHR that the Country classes are HUGE and that is because horses with no action (hate to say it but the majority of minis don't have any action to speak of) cannot compete in Pleasure. My gelding is just barely a ture Pleasure horse, and only really competitive at the Local level... but has too much knee action for Country so I don't know what to do with him besides just enjoy him (and let Youth enjoy him too!). Both Country and Pleasure horses make good Roadster horses though if they really like to fly!

Your description of Country versus Pleasure sounds right on... and I have to say that in the past Judges have really sucked at defining what a "good" driving horse is and picking the best horses... but overall they seem to have become a lot more educated and I have been happy with what they have been picking... in AMHR the driving is becoming more and more popular so judges are seeing more horses in front of them and it is just better all around for all of us.

Andrea

 

[horsefeather]

Miniv,

You cann't cross enter in the same show, but you can show 1 show as CP and the next show as Pleasure.

Pam

 

[sami]

Angie,

Nice description of both country and single Pleasure Driving. We have wonderful examples of both divisions in the Judges seminars that make the distinction very clear. (Although this is new just this year) I think that the reason you may see a horse go from a single pleasure class to country or vice-versa is that sometimes it takes a video and an honest critique of ones horse to see where where the horse really belongs. I too see some judges picking single horses in Country when there is a good country horse BUT remember that extreem action is to be Penalized and so a horse that is NOT Bridled, Dumped on the Forehand has NO Contact and is Harnessed poorly should not place over the pleasure Horse even by severly penalizing him. This is what the rules state. With one small critique (I mean small) ( It may also be the photo angle) this is a wonderful country horse. You look like you really enjoy driving him. :aktion033:

Just so everyone knows, the wonderful horses that we have and we get enjoyment out of driving around the farm or taking trail drives or have the kids drive, are not necessarily Country pleasre driving horses. They are precious and worth their weight in gold to me. Miniature Horses have become athletes now and are very capable of wonderful Show Performances. I am sorry that i do not have still photos that would show you the difference.

I have just started looking at this forum and do not know my way around here so please bear with me. I Could recommend a book for anyone who really wants to know about movement and Comformation. It also explains all of the terms used in the FORWARD movement of the horse.

Opps better go and finish painting the bedroom.

:

Your horse looks like an ideal CP horse. Pleasure horses are checked up high and are expected to have a lot of knee action usually. Country horses have more flat kneed extenstion, are not checked up as high, and are expected to have better manners.


I don't know about AMHA but I have seen in AMHR that the Country classes are HUGE and that is because horses with no action (hate to say it but the majority of minis don't have any action to speak of) cannot compete in Pleasure. My gelding is just barely a ture Pleasure horse, and only really competitive at the Local level... but has too much knee action for Country so I don't know what to do with him besides just enjoy him (and let Youth enjoy him too!). Both Country and Pleasure horses make good Roadster horses though if they really like to fly!


Your description of Country versus Pleasure sounds right on... and I have to say that in the past Judges have really sucked at defining what a "good" driving horse is and picking the best horses... but overall they seem to have become a lot more educated and I have been happy with what they have been picking... in AMHR the driving is becoming more and more popular so judges are seeing more horses in front of them and it is just better all around for all of us.


Andrea

 


Andrea Very informed thoughtful and intelligent responses. You seem to have a vision of the Miniature Driving Horse and all its charms

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[angelridge]

Rob and Pam, Yes you guys have a ton of driving over there,, I wish it was as big over on this side.

I have shown halter,, but driving is so much more fun.

Thanks Andrea and Sami, that is Sweety, I have been driving her for about 2 years. She IS a pure pleasure to drive! Just about anyone with any horse knowledge at all could drive her and show.

Oh and Pam, I agree, some SP horses do NOT look like they are a pleasure to drive! LOL! I have seen some come part while waiting to go in the arena,, SCARY!! I honestly wish the class carried a different name.

I guess that could be another topic.

And Sami, I would love to know the name of the book! I have 2 and possibly 3 driving horses to start soon.

And I am really open to knowledge of conformation and driving. I have learned that yes, any horse can be trained to drive for the kids or for trail or fun, but, conformation is the key to good movement.

Would still like to hear why more of you east coasters arent driving??! Its so much more fun than halter,, and driving at the World is fantastic!!

Angie

 

[Margo_C-T]

I agree that Andrea(disneyhorse)gave a good description of CP vs. SP. I would emphasize the "good manners" part as being quite important in the distinction between the two(along with the more obvious features of 'way of going', elevation of stride, and head elevation--and of course, BOTH should exhibit genuine collection, not artificial cram-jam. A TRUE walk is important to both classifications; I would like to see the more relaxed, ground-covering('grass-cutting', if you will) walk in a CP horse-but BOTH should do a proper walk; I have seen any number of horses place well in SP after not performing a decent walk....

I like the apparent ground-covering stride and general demeanor of the horse pictured; however, as a judge(I am not carded, but have done a fair deal of judging, though not 'officially', nor for pay, for a number of years-and I always 'practice', in my head), I would consider the horse a tiny bit 'overbridled'for CP-breaking at the crest instead of at the poll.

I have a Cowboy Del son who has the same kind of action(it comes from his dam's side, too--look at Jess Rocky Rabbit-he got it from that same dam.) Time was, that kind did well in SP; nowadays, when a horse that moves that way will walk out, yet smoothly and steadily,(manners), and stands and backs quietly but properly in the line up,(again, manners) it is a better candidate for CP. I started out showing this horse in SP, and he did well locally, but wasn't elevated/fast enough at Regional/National level. When I quit showing his (AMHA Champion-qualified; just have to think to send all the stuff in!) older full brother, once definitely a CP horse, until the line got a little too blurred--I moved this horse to CP, when he did very well.

I would not consider an 'old drag-butt, nose stuck 'way out, drooping reins horse' a proper CP horse, but I HAVE seen a lot of blurring of what should be the defining characteristice between CP and SP--I do hope that better education of carded judges(many of whom, I think, have had little to no experience in the PROPER judging of MINIATURE driving-not Hackney breed driving, not Saddlebred, nor Arab, nor QH, etc., etc.)breed driving, will be and is being, moved forward!

 

[slaneyrose]

Here in Ireland we have just got our very first miniature horse society and plan to really promote competitive and leisure driving so its not just about the show horse etc But we dont know anything about this country and pleasure driving....you guys are way ahead of us in this area

I`m just wondering......when you enter these competitions is it just the horse that is judged...and on what......or the driver too???

 

[Sunraye Miniatures]

Very good decriptions on the difference of a country vs pleasure driving horse. Good example of a country pleasure horse in the pic too

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IMO Country pleasure horse is a joy to drive with limited knee action, the action judges should be looking for is the one in the pic IMO.

A pleasure horse is a little hotter but should be manageable at all times, has knee action (up and down motion).

I honestly think this is simple for the judges to judge if a horse is ever in a wrong class, however I agree a pleasure horse is sure pretty too look at

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[Fred]

Sorry Rob, but I take exception that we are just halter in the east. There are MANY extremely good driving horses here in the east. I have a horse that can do both country OR pleasure. It does take a rare individual to do so but it can be done. When we show country I flatten out his motion, pleasure I raise it. My horse is NOT driven on a tight check and MANNERS should be the rule in both divisions. Linda B

 

[Chandler@RoyalPalm]

Angie,

Good topic to get started!!! :aktion033: :aktion033: Very good examples of country vs pleasure horses have been inputted already. I have observed myself within just these past few years the Single and Country classes are getting stronger and bigger. Yes, there are still horses in the incorrect division; however, the majority is moving towards the right way.

As mentioned people do "bump" some single horses down to country. Most of the time its green horses just starting out. They just dont have the collection and knowledge themselves to be competitive in the single market, so they are bumped down to country with less pressure on them than it would have been rushing them into single pleasure (it takes talent and time to develop into a top notch single horse). Yes, the horse does have more motion that the average country horse but what else is there to do? With saying the performance committee has been developed and working on a solution. We are going to implement classes by age. So example your 3 yr old green driving horse will compete against horses his own age instead of a steady horse thats been shown for years. In doing that I feel this will level out the single horses in country. Still we just cant say the single horses go into country when there are a lot of country horses in single...

With the new performance committee in motion I truly believe you will see a change for the good in the performance aspect of the breed. For classes geared to the new "fresh" driving horses and more education to the public will be getting us moving forward in the right direction...

Chandler

 

[mininik]

"Yes, the horse does have more motion that the average country horse but what else is there to do?"

I do hope the addition of 3 yr. old driving classes helps that issue at least by giving the less experienced horses somewhere to go. I've gotten really tired of seeing true Country horses pinned under the mediocre Single Pleasure horses entered in the wrong classes...

:

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I've gotten really tired of seeing true Country horses pinned under the mediocre Single Pleasure horses entered in the wrong classes...

I second Envypoodles. If the horse is too green to show successfully in its own division, then show it for practice or keep it out of the ring until it's ready! Good gosh. The rest of us who do not have trainers have to start at the bottom and improve, maybe the trainers horses should too. Because it hacks me off when their mediocre green SP horse beats a good country horse because it moves higher. Country should not be a cast-off class for those who "aren't good enough" for pleasure. The two kinds of classes are for two different, but equally good types of horses. It's a slap in the face when that green SP horse wins over the good seasoned country movers.

Okay, sorry, that just pushed a button.

: It ought to be possible to improve your placings by teaching your horse to travel more on the bit, etc., and not be limited by how high his knees go. I find it very frustrating that if your horse is a truly low mover (no matter how free and long his stride) it seems like you might as well not show.

My opinion is that country is not and should not be a "training division" for single. There should be novice or limit horse classes in each division and that's the end of the issue. Every other breed has that, and that sort of qualification class helps those who own an older green horse who can't compete in the 3 year old classes but just got started driving.

Have several. Add a futurity or age-segregated driving class, then add a novice horse or limit horse (under a certain number of ribbons or points at recognized shows) class and then the regular ammy and open and youth driver classes. Those who still chose to go in open will be the trainers and good drivers with experienced horses, the ammy's may have professionally trained horses but the drivers are greener, and green horses will go with green horses in the limit/futurity classes. It isn't perfect, but it's better than using CP as a staging ground for SP horses. It's not fair to those great CP horses.

Leia

Of course, if I want my horse to be judged for his training and not his knee action I should be at the CDE's anyway. Oh wait, I already am.

: :risa_suelos: Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Dr. Pam]

OK, please chime in on this, but my perception is the horses they pin in AMHA Single Pleasure move much differently than what we have in AMHR. The R horses have a lot of lift and animation, the A horses throw their legs up and out. Hard to describe--looks really "odd" to my uneducated eye. I don't "do" the A circuit--just what I saw at AMHA World and in the World magazine.

Sami, I hope there is an improved learning curve, because in my experience less than half of the judges we show under understand performance classes.

 

[4mymirage]

We are new to showing (2 yrs, 8 rated shows)

We carried my daughter and her little horse to a rated show and due to his action (shown below), we entered him in SP - at the end of the class, he hadn't placed - no biggie, we are newbies... however, after the show, I approached the judge, told him this was our first AMHA show and what did we need to change...he replied that our horse had too good of manners to be in SP that we should put him in CP where manners were appreciated....

: Oh yeah, we should also "jack up the check"

:

Of course, at some big shows I have seen the winners in both SP and CP rear and buck and still win - to the point a trainer once came and apologized for my horse placing below his ... :new_shocked:

Overall, though, I think the majority of the judges try hard not to let that stuff happen.

 

[Chandler@RoyalPalm]

Dr Pam,

I agree the majority of the time the "A" minis dont have that((( rolling/animated "hackney"/park type action ))) as their "B" cousins do... Its very hard to find in A minis... Im like you and dont understand the flapping single pleausre horses that have been winning alot... Or the up and down trot... I myself prefer a high animated trot with reach and roll...

Here is a pic of my very green driving horse last year (first year in the cart)... He has the movement that I prefer and once he settles in under harness its going to be hot...

Edited to say--- Oh, hard to believe hes under 32" huh?

 

[Tammy]

4mymirage,

For the most part, you have gotten a fairly good explanation of the difference between pleasure and country pleasure. In Pleasure, you will typically see a vertical head set, substantial knee and hock action, good extension, distinct gait changes, and a faster pace. In Country, the head set should be more at ease - less checked, more extension and less knee, distinct (yet different) gait changes, and a bit slower pace. Of course, these distinctions are vague and as always open to interpretation.

It is also common (yet inappropriate) for a pleasure horse to be introduced into the country division as well as retired there. I have seen this a number of times, and the most unfortunate part about it is that some judges still reward it. However, at the same time can you really blame exhibitors for entering their horse into the division where they are most likely to place? Before we can expect exhibitors to refrain from this practice, judging needs to take the stance that they will not be placed for doing so.

Finally, I am very disappointed to hear that a judge told you manners were only appropriate for country pleasure. That is perhaps the most ignorant thing I have ever heard regarding a driving horse. Often times, you will see a pleasure horse that acts up (even sometimes being handled by professional trainers). However, this is not because they are a "pleasure horse", but rather because the horse has not had the ground work it should have. Many horses are very uncomfortable with the tight overcheck that you often see in pleasure - and for good reason: it's not natural. Horses must first "learn" a headset. It is not a result of taking up the overcheck as tight as you can get it right before you enter the ring. An informed judge will not place a horse that rears or breaks incessantly even if a qualified trainer is at the whip. A truly great driving horse will have manners - regardless of what division it is shown in.

Tammy

 

[mininik]

I agree, Tammy. Manners should be important to judges and exhibitors in BOTH Country and Single Pleasure classes. Just because a horse might be "hot" doesn't mean he needs to act stupid.

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