WHY BREED MORE AND MORE HORSES

[rabbitsfizz]

I agree wholeheartedly but how will breeders of good, quality horses not breeding help to prevent the low quality animals that are being turned out at the bottom end of the market??

Should we, seriously now, not tongue in cheek or what ever, just stop, let it all find it's level and then, in ten or fifteen years, start again??

What other solution is there??

 

[Fred]

Matt, I LIVE in the basic area that you do and MY expenses are far far more than what you quoted. I raise, breed and show the minis and have done it for quite a while and you know I have. I sell very few horses and have no problem selling anything I raise [to great homes I might add]. There are qood horses in this area and there are some very cheap ones also. I probably have more of an idea than most people about what is available as being a farrier gives me more access to what is out there. As for the slaughter thing that was written, unless YOU personally witness said acts you shouldn't comment on it. I think you need to meet the gentleman [and I stress GENTLEMAN] who hauls for the killers in this area. He is the most kind, humane man you would want to meet. He is well known in the area and is extremely compassionate to owners who have lost there horse. You are still pretty darn young and have a lot to learn but you WILL learn, you just have to pay your dues like the rest of us.

 

[tagalong]

First is the travel. Horses are loaded onto enlarged stock trailers. They are overloaded. The horses barely have room to move. If they go to the bathroom it is practically on another horses, that is how packed they are. The trips on the trailers sometimes lasted for several hours and the horses were never fed and were never given water. Some horses died during travel and they were left there, in the trailer, with all of the other live horses. Upon arriving at the slaughter house they were put into holding corrals, if they were still alive anyway. When it was their turn they would be brought in. One common practice for "sedating" the horse was to stab it in the back several times, this would paralyze it, but the animal was still very much alive. It was then hung by its back hooves upside down. Then its throat was slit, most times the horses were still alive when they had to endure this, and then they bled to death.

Matt - have you ever toured a properly run slaughterhouse? Obviously not.

I have - so this is first hand info. Nothing sensationalized. Nothing PETA would get extremely worked up about.

The horses in the holding lots were better fed than many of them ever were at home. They were sorted out - young from old. The aggressive seperated from the meek. Stallions seperated. Horses that no one wanted any more. Potential riding horses were often sorted out again into a different area - as the dealers could get more for the horse that way than running it up the chute. Friends bought many nice riding horses right out of the holding yards... and those horses had happy lives and were even therapeutic riding horses.

Downers were almost unheard of there. And if they happened... they were immediatly dealt with - not left there. In fact - no horses were ever left standing in the trailers for any length of time upon arrival. The double decker trailers were being phased out the last time I was there.... only one level stock trailers/trucks were preferred. They were much easier to unload as well... easier on the horses, easier on the workers.

Slaughter. One at a time - the horses went up the Chute. A door closed behind them. The walls were slightly sloped. From overhead a electric charge gun dropped the horse dead - usually before they even had a chance to look around or get worried. And if the operator thought that the first time may not have worked - he did it again.

NO HORSE left that holding area alive. No reflexes. Nothing. No horses were "bled to death". When they were hoisted up and then bled out - they were very dead - no thrashing - no horror. And not nearly sensationalist enough to make good video that gets passed around in outrage...

I never saw a horse "sedated" by being stabbed in the back. Ever. If it was such a "common practice" - I would surely have seen this.

And yes - I was at the plant more than once - as the vet I was helping had to make regular (and unannounced) visits to check in on things.

But as I have discovered on this forum in the past - first hand experience often counts for nothing against what people "know" to be true...

Why did I tour the place? And go back? Because I wanted to see things first hand - and not rely on sensationalist - if well-meaning - reports.

Sorry - I know the slaughterhouse issue is a seperate topic - but I wanted to reply to Matt's observations.

 

[palominogirl]

If the high quality breeders breeds then they are going to sell. you cant always be sure about who your selling to which is the exact reason i dont sell. you may think you found someone that will show them and take care of them but the next thing you know that horse could be dog food. Its not exactly the big breeders causing a problem with slaughter i feel its the people who buy a stallion and start breeding it to every type of horse they can get their hands on. if people who are really into showing see a horse go through that is not and cannot be registered they wont waste their money.all i see by breeding 2 completely different breeds together how many classes are you gonna find to show that horse in. i dont really see miniatures going through sales around here i have seen many big horses go through the ring sold to slaughter dealers.

 

[maestoso]

Fred I admire your experience, and I do not doubt that what your are saying is correct, about both the man who hauls for killers or your breeding expenses, but I think I am looking at breeding expenses differently than you are, but enough said on that.

In regards to slaughter, when the whole idea to start banning slaughter houses started, I was very interested in it and studied it. I did see several videos of the process, the entire process, from the start of the hauling and until the death of the horse. The videos were certainly not hoaxes, cartoons, jokes, etc. Obviously these were the worst cases. When something like this is trying to be pushed, the exposure will always be the worst cases because they want you to believe it. But regardless the videos were horrible. I am sure there was a hauler out there who did it nicely, a slaughter house who did it differently, but how do you control it to allow the humane procedures to continue and the abusive procedures to stop? What are the advantages to slaughter verses euthanization?

I won't ignore that there are properly run slaughterhouses, but the fact there are abusive slaughter houses can't be ignored either, and as I just asked, how do you deal with this?

I am happy to say that I do have a lot to learn, though I don't think age dictates experience in any way. But that is what most people will say who are apart of my generation. And most people in the older generations might say the exact opposite.

 

[Margo_C-T]

<Stands up to applaud Danielle E.'s post!>

Quote from one of the several posts on this thread from Mr. Drown: "They breed as a hobby because they like babies and the experience, and usually the money they make goes to cover to(sic)cost of other horse related expenses such as hay, etc." This is as clear a statement of irresponsible breeding as I can imagine, and I don't think Mr. Drown realizes that...Why? Because it makes clear that horses are being produced to satisfy a 'selfish'-yes, selfish! motive of the breeder-"...because they like the babies". This would be all well and good, IF 'they'are going to keep and be responsible for the resulting horses(which, as we all know, do not 'STAY' those cute babies)for the lifespans of said horses. If not, then I strongly feel that 'they' are as much a part of the problem as anyone! Once upon a time, when miniatures were such a novelty, many DID 'get away' with that kind of a breeding philosophy, perhaps--but times HAVE changed, and in the best interests of the hapless animals, who have NO VOICE and NO CHOICE in what happens to them, WE as humans need to change OUR approach to the whole issue of the production of companion animals! Like it or not, what once may have been 'OK' may no longer be in the animals' best interests....and THAT is what should be our benchmark of behavior. Heck, I liked the babies, too--most are mighty cute, no matter what quality they are. That is NOT, any more at least (if it EVER was!?)suffiecient justification for producing one without being prepared to have a lifetime PERSONAL committment to its care and well-being! I used to breed a bit; however, I found that I did NOT like selling---to me, a quality animal should pretty much 'sell itself'-to a discriminating buyer--but especially in miniature horses, there are MANY who are NOT discriminating buyers-who in fact, don't know a horse from a hat-and I just could never get comfortable with 'promoting' a sale to those whom I couldn't feel good about as providing a proper home for a horse. I have made excuses and turned down prospective buyers--even in my own local area, and some who were clearly ready to pay darn good money...and don't regret it...but did find that the best answer for me was to simply quit breeding. I kept two out of the three very BEST horses I produced(performance GELDINGS), and am to this day VERY happy about the homes most of the others got(and several of the other top-notch ones have gone on to become accomplished performance horses-mares, in fact-who are NOT and have never been, bred!! In every case, though, getting the horses I bred, including the ones that weren't of as high quality as I'd hoped, INTO those good homes took a good bit of time and patience and a willingness to make the good home the very top priority---and quite honestly, became a source of stress--and as the world keeps changing,and as many people now look at animals as more of a 'disposable item', and proper care has gotten considerably more expensive--- I am doubly glad that I quit breeding when I did!

Margo

 

[tagalong]

I did see several videos of the process, the entire process, from the start of the hauling and until the death of the horse. The videos were certainly not hoaxes, cartoons, jokes, etc. Obviously these were the worst cases. When something like this is trying to be pushed, the exposure will always be the worst cases because they want you to believe it.

But in the same breath - you cannot then assure us of "common practices" when they aren't. You cannot hold it up as normal. I actually have not seen any videos where horses got stabbed in the back (lucky me ) - that must have been some kind of backwoods abattoir... and/or small one.

I won't ignore that there are properly run slaughterhouses, but the fact there are abusive slaughter houses can't be ignored either, and as I just asked, how do you deal with this?

You don't shut them down... and make a desperate situation worse. You can regulate and monitor them instead.

Slauighter vs. euthanasia.

What do you do with that euthanized horse, BTW? Not everyone can simply bury them.

Slaughter can be euthanasia. That same plant I described had a side door. You could trailer a horse right up there - they would help you unload him quietly and without fuss... and then use another electric charge to lay him down - quickly, painlessly, no struggling. And that was the route I chose for my Thoroughbred gelding who was slowly fading due to kidney shutdown. In the dead of winter, with temperatures in the -20s... we hauled him there in comfort... fed him some treats... and the quiet and efficent worker made sure he did not suffer.

And having said that - no doubt I am going to be flamed and blowtorched for being heartless and having no compassion. My compassion for him made me seek out the most stress-free and painless way of dealing with a sad situation. And we did not have to wait for spring to thaw the ground out to bury him, either.

I did what was best for him. As did many others who used that side door....

Matt - how about sharing your view of breeding expenses... and running a farm. All vet care, power, maintenance, water bills, feed, fencing, insurance etc. figured in? I am just wondering what your take on all this is... as I feel you are not really understanding all that is involved...

 

[Danielle_E.]

I agree wholeheartedly but how will breeders of good, quality horses not breeding help to prevent the low quality animals that are being turned out at the bottom end of the market??

Should we, seriously now, not tongue in cheek or what ever, just stop, let it all find it's level and then, in ten or fifteen years, start again??

What other solution is there??

We all agree that even some of the best bred miniature are selling for ridiculously low prices, sometimes no better than the ones coming out of "horse mills". Would it not make more sense to cut back on numbers being bred, EVERYONE. Oh I know the puppy mill type breeders will continue to do so and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that, but for all others we can decide to lets say breed half of what we were going to breed and do this for a couple of years. It might just help get the market back to more reasonable prices and at the same time help the situation of too many in numbers that could fall into less than stellar hands or end up in dire situations where they end up in slaughter. I am not saying stop breeding all together, I am saying cut back! You might say well what is the difference if I breed 5 horses this year and sell the babies and can only get under $1,000 or breed half of that each year for the next few years and get $2,000 ? What you get is what I call "responsible breeding". You go with what the "market" can handle or you can continue breeding whatever number you breed each year and eventually you won't be able to sell any at all and might only get $500 for them. We have to start somewhere and we all profess to be "responsible breeders" so I say let's put our words into action. Just talking about it isn't going to make the market come back, only action will and without pointing fingers to the next guy and not following through on what you and I and everyone else here can do to make the situation better, for our horses and for ourselves in the long haul.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

You are right, Danielle, if you are not part of the solution.....

 

[Katiean]

Because of the "over population" of minis we were able to buy our next driving show horse for a price that would make everyone cry. I have been told that the breeder of this horse is very honest and reputable. The market is so slow that we sold a grade colt a year ago for more than we paid for this mare. So, I say it would be in everyones best interest to at least cut back breeding.

 

[Jill]

I'm not the first to say this, and it's not the first time I've said it, either. I think there is always a market for quality. The horses I bought this year are what I like, and they weren't just a few hundred dollars, either. I hope the breeders I've admired won't stop breeding. I'm sure I will want / need to make good additions and changes as the years go by.

 

[New_Image]

Thousands upon thousands of horses are slaughtered every year yet breeders, whether registered or not are constantly breeding more and more! I just need to ask why when so many end up as dog food?
If only reputable horse breeders were to stop breeding for one year it would make a big difference to the horse overpopulation no.gif

Its the "If I stopped breeding it would have no effect so why bother" attitude that continues to over populate, quality animals or not.

So many people can complain about the TERRIBLE horse market and over population, the prices going down etc... but can not see that quality aside they are the problem as much as the next guy.......

I just find it best to stay out of breeding and ignore it all

 

[LeosPocoDan]

There isn't a big issue with horses being shipped to slaughter after the law passed but I don't think horses that are not regestered should be bred. Maybe a law making you have a lisence to breed would help, like they have for exotics. But people arn't just going to stop breeding.

But slaughter was better than the now alternative life of the 100,000+ horses every year.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Because of the "over population" of minis we were able to buy our next driving show horse for a price that would make everyone cry. I have been told that the breeder of this horse is very honest and reputable. The market is so slow that we sold a grade colt a year ago for more than we paid for this mare. So, I say it would be in everyones best interest to at least cut back breeding.

I'm not the first to say this, and it's not the first time I've said it, either. I think there is always a market for quality. The horses I bought this year are what I like, and they weren't just a few hundred dollars, either. I hope the breeders I've admired won't stop breeding. I'm sure I will want / need to make good additions and changes as the years go by.

I am just taking an example of Jill's post, nothing personal Jill, but this is the reason that numbers will keep going up. Jill, nobody is telling people to stop breeding all together, at least that isn't what I was trying to convey. A few weeks ago there was a thread about a sale here on this forum and people were commenting that the prices were exceptionally low and how sad, yada yada and I saw the pics of these horses, I believe it was a sale with a live feed to it, sorry can't remember the name of the sale, but people were commenting that some of the last horses in the sale were going for as little as $200 and they were very nice, well conformed show type horses. If we as breeders, the smaller breeder and the larger breeder keep breeding at the rate we are this will continue. What would need to happen is that breeders either put a fair price (higher) on their stock and stick to their guns to get their asking price or keep their stock till they get the price that these animals are worth. You can't buy a registered purebred dog for that price! I was looking today at an ad for registered tea cup yorkies and their price is $1500 and up, for a dog and some are selling their registered minis for $200???? $500?????

 

[Margaret]

So True Danielle, too many people are breeding and have the make it or break it attitude, where if there offspring dont sell by a certain point, they panic and drop their prices to make room for the next years crop.

Its a vicious cycle that doesent seem to stop.

The market is so flooded that buyers a can stand back and wait for a desperate seller to drop their price, as

the buyer is getting wise to this game too.

It is a good time to be discriminate about who you breed,- if you choose to breed at all.

 

[The Simple Life Farm]

Can we change the subject now?????

TMI on the slaughter process!!!!!

 

[maestoso]

Tagalong,

I have no interest in ever "just breeding"... I have a horse because I like having a horse. I like to show, train, etc. I like going out and watching him run around the paddock and I like cleaning his stall. I might breed him at some point if I have a mare, but I wouldn't buy the mare just to breed. Maybe I want another show horse, and it would be nice if it were a mare because then if I chose to breed the option is there. I got into horses knowing that there would always be more money pouring out than coming in. If I decide to breed it will be extra, it won't be the reason for my keeping horses. Because I have a horse, and will always have horses because of reasons besides breeding, I don't consider their routine expenses breeding expenses. I have to feed both the mare and stud anyway. (For me personally) I would be showing them anyway, I would be getting them their dental/vet/hoof care anyway. They would be getting Spring vaccinations anyway. If I had my own barn, I would have to be paying the maintenance bills anyway. All those things tagalong mentions are things horse people have to pay weather they breed or not(unless they are only in it to breed) I am aware and do understand the costs of horses. If I were really trying to do that math on it, the only expenses I would consider BREEDING expenses would be the vet visit for the ultrasound, 3 visits for shots, and the visit when the foal is born. Also the extra food I have to feed the mare, and the food I'd have to feed the foal once it started eating. I know that many people here have posted that you pay $90 for a farm call and I am sorry, Ive never paid that for a farm call. I think the most I have ever paid for a farm call is $40, but it is usually not even that high. If you add up every expense you have for your horses, you could win the lottery and still not break even, but personally, I don't consider every expense a breeding expense. If you only have horses so you can breed, and only show so you can title your mare who you breed, and only train because you breed, etc, that is a lot of work to not even break even. But I dont know many people who are only in it for the breeding. Everyone I know had horses because they liked them first, breeding came later. And most of them would still keep their horses now if they stopped breeding.

Perhaps this is not a good analogy, but it is all I can think of at the moment...... I teach saxophone lessons. I am able to do that because I have played and trained for a long time. When I try to determine my profits, I am not looking to make back what I paid for my saxophone or what I spend on reeds and music and my own lessons, etc, because I would have the saxophone even if i didn't teach. I would buy reeds so I could play even if I didn't teach, so those are not costs that result from teaching. Those are costs that are a result of my hobby.

The gas I have to buy to travel to students is a result of teaching, it is a cost I would not have if I didn't teach, so that is something I figure in to it.

Music and reeds can be expensive, and the lessons I take for myself are very expensive and most of the money I make from teaching goes right back to my hobby to cover other costs.

I love teaching, but I would not teach and charge enough to ONLY cover my gas cost(which is my only teaching expense, besides time).

Bur if I did not teach, I wouldn't be able to afford my own lessons and music and such, so yes, in that sense, I do it for the money, and I don't think that saying that makes me greedy, I think it means I am able to do something I love to do and it helps me cover costs of other things I love, or another part of that hobby.

Im not saying everyone looks at this way, but I do and perhaps that better explains why I feel like selling foals can extend past just covering (what I feel) are breeding expenses.

IMO the cost of running a farm and the cost of breeding expenses are completely separate(unless you ONLY have a farm to breed) and that is why I don't lump the two together.

Does that answer your question tagalong?

 

[JWC sr.]

I have taken the time to read this entire string and a couple of things need to be said from my view point.

1. We do not breed every mare we have on the farm. Some are not the quality that we are breeding for today and Cindy can't stand the thought of getting rid of the mares that she has had for so many years. Some of them since they were babies and now are 18 - 19 years old. So we feed, care and love them for what they are pet quality horses that give us a lot of joy.

2. We are breeders for the most part, we enjoy putting together a breeding plan with all the things that go into it and then working for 5 - 8 years to bring that plan to fruitation. OH!

3. We enjoy the showing, but to be honest for a number of years have sold the best we produced as a means to get our horses into other peoples hands and in other parts of the country including Europe to prove up our breeding program.

4. We do not have a problem selling for reasonable money the babies we produce every year. Last year the hgh selling filly sold for 20,000.00 and the low selling filly which was pet quality sold for 800.00, colts ranged from 600.00 - 15,000.00.

5. We have seen mini's sell for a lot of money and we have also seen them sell for a few hundred dollars. In most cases though the sellers that were taking that kind of money for thier horses were not doing the things required to get a fair price for the horses they sold. Places like here at little beggininings offer great value as far as advertizing your horses, the national magazines, the other breed magazines etc. etc. It takes time, effort and money to market your horses and most people do not do it. They take them to a low budget sale and accept really silly money for quality horses that they have worked hard to produce.

6. It does not make a difference if you have just a few horses or a large herd, marketing and education of the general public and industry are the tickets to finding good homes for your horses. Additionally we believe there is a use for every miniature horse, all the way from being a companion horse to being a national quality show horse. It is our job as owners to find those uses and place the horses in them if we are going to say we are responsible breeders/owners in our opinion.

Bottom line is as far as we are concerned, the market is fine and horses will sell if you put time, effort and forethought about where, when and how you are going to sell your horses. If you don't go through this process you are doomed to find very few buyers for your foals no matter what the quality of the horses are. OH!

Take the emotion out of it and you can see where we are coming from. A perfect example is as follows, a Vice President of Texaco USA told me many years ago when talking to me about the need for marketing, his analogy was that you could have the best steaks in the world, but if you don't put a sign out in front of your resturant saying Steaks for sale or something to that effect, nobody will know about it and you will fail in placing your steaks before they go bad.

If you are going to breed it is your responsibility to either be prepared to do whatever it takes to find good loving homes for the animals you produce or keep them yourself for the rest of thier lives.

That our two cents worth and we will continue to do what we do as it works for us. We may not make a lot of money by going to the expense of doing all the marketing we do, but we can sleep very well at night knowing our horses are doing fine and we are enjoying producing them.

 

[Jill]

I am just taking an example of Jill's post, nothing personal Jill, but this is the reason that numbers will keep going up. Jill, nobody is telling people to stop breeding all together, at least that isn't what I was trying to convey. A few weeks ago there was a thread about a sale here on this forum and people were commenting that the prices were exceptionally low and how sad, yada yada and I saw the pics of these horses, I believe it was a sale with a live feed to it, sorry can't remember the name of the sale, but people were commenting that some of the last horses in the sale were going for as little as $200 and they were very nice, well conformed show type horses. If we as breeders, the smaller breeder and the larger breeder keep breeding at the rate we are this will continue. What would need to happen is that breeders either put a fair price (higher) on their stock and stick to their guns to get their asking price or keep their stock till they get the price that these animals are worth. You can't buy a registered purebred dog for that price! I was looking today at an ad for registered tea cup yorkies and their price is $1500 and up, for a dog and some are selling their registered minis for $200???? $500?????

Or, what if every "breeder" instead spends the YEARS and YEARS that I have spent trying to learn and then putting together a nice breeding herd? Vs. breeding every year since they first got into minis

As I said, I may have as many as 5 foals due this year, which marks the first foals that were "mine" from conception and I've been into minis since 1999. I will not be breeding every mare that I own (10 mares / fillies) as the years go on, and will make choices I feel are good as to who I breed, if I breed, as the time goes by.

What I hope is that we will be able to make some horses that will mean as much to other serious enthusiasts as our nicest horses mean to us. I'm not out to mass produce, but I am aiming to produce some foals that will make me and others proud. I don't feel guilty about these choices and it's not something I cooked up over night.

 

[Danielle_E.]

John

thank you very much for your wonderful and eloquent post. You have given me much food for thought and I have to say that I totally agree with your vision, mission, etc. I truly wish there were more breeders out there like you . You are correct with regards to the marketing aspect of it and not enough of us go your route and that is why you are seeing some exceptionally nice minis basically almost being given away (my analogy of a mini going for less than a purebred dog). I do think we can turn this picture around, collectively and you are right in saying that it takes work to do this. I guess one of my pet peeves is when I have seen ads where the seller seems desperate to sell this year's foal crop to make room for next year's. Now I know that sometimes life deals everyone a bad hand, so to speak, and you must downsize big time, but for the past few years here I have seen many of the ads that I am speaking about. When I see these kind of ads I do think to myself "if you have to do this why are you breeding more?". It is this kind of breeding, where the seller is unable to hang on to their production till they get a fair dollar for their minis that in my opinion causes the excess minis on the market along with the puppy mill type breeding and that keeps the $ low in the market. I applaud you John for being a truly responsible breeder and I know there are many more of you out there as well but probably not enough of you or we wouldn't be in this predicament.

I received an email from a member here who shared with me a story of a mini she picked up at an auction. Perhaps she will share her story here to give an example as to what can happen to a VERY nice mini. It's not only the puppy mill type mini that ends up like this either and that is why many of us need to rethink our motives, our programs, etc. That will certainly help our minis and ourselves in the longrun. We can only each do what we can do, I fully understand that but as they say "babysteps".... they do lead somewhere, and hopefully to the betterment for the breed.

Jill, thanks for understanding my post. I didn't want to point a finger at you in particular, just wanted to use the words of your post because many many feel as you do.