WHY BREED MORE AND MORE HORSES

[k9mini2]

Hi everyone, I don't post often, but come lurk

. Let me add my 2 cents worth.

my husband and I live just 5 miles from a big horse auction that was well know for its "killer market" With the slaughter ban in the US (we are smack in the middle of the US) Prices on all horses had dropped to the cellar. We went down there two weeks ago. BIG horse prices now. Weanling foals registered or not $25 to $100. Yearling to 2 year old unbroke $100 to $150 registered or not. Broke horses (now somone has invested money to have this horse broke to ride mind you) $175 to $600. Ocassionally some hotshot, usually a friend out in the audience pumping the bids gets $1000 or more!

7 years ago before all this started weanlings and yearlings sold upward of $1000 and Broke horses sold $1200 to $3000.

Minis that I see brought in registered or not sell between $100 to $500 and that still seems to be the case not much change in the last 7 years. actually may have gone up as I don't recall any selling for $500 when I first started visiting this auction. I rarely see minis, but when I do people jump all over them.!

What disturbs me the most is the patheticaly skinny horses I am seeing go through. And the killer buyers (I know most of them by having seen them all these years) were not present. These poor horse are starving and no one wants to buy them and the previous owner obviously doesn't want to feed them.

I think we are in this part of the country seeing huge effects of the slaughter ban in the US and I think like a cancer its going to spread over the whole country. It is affecting the puppy mill type breeders, the back yard breeders and the Good but not high class breeders. Unfortunately the only people it hasn't seem to hurt are the very wealthy who have the $100,000 type horses...I am sure that market will feel little effect.

IT really breaks my heart to see the condition of these horses and know that the average person around here won't treat them much better than the place they left. Few people around here put their horses down, they always took them to this sale. It cost about $100 to put a unhealthy horse down (or undesireable one) if you have the vet do it and then another $50 to $100 for someone to haul the carcass off. Some people don't want' to invest that...so out to the back field and a bullet in the head...I think will be the happening and the coyote population will soar with all the extra food. IS that better than the slaughter??? I don't think so my self (especially knowing how heartless some of these guys around here are)

You know a huge number of people don't see horses as pets like most people on this site do...they see them as livestock, have always seen them as such and have little emotion wrapped up in them. They also see them no different than a cow, pig, chickn or any other livestock going to slaughter... Once they are no longer useful or profitable they are worthless and not worth vet bills or feed...

By the way why is it that no one camps on the cow slaughter house doors watching and filming how they kill them... weird

we are are pretty unemotional about the cow that we eat. And funny thing is I grew up on a farm and I had pet calves/cows...And I know when they went to market, they most likely were going to be eaten...hard part of farm life.

Sorry if This upsets anyone, just again my thoughts on this and doesn't mean I am right just thoughts.

Just one added not for the comparison, this morning on RFD TV the NCHA furturiy sale is on. second horse sold for $43,000

that market is still fine, I just cant afford a $43,000 horse!

 

[k9mini2]

Reading my own note I kina got off track and meant to also say. I have 10 mares, of those 10 probably 6 are in foal and hopefully will have live healthy foals. I am trying to develop a better and better mini with my limited funds. Don't throw me in the backyard breeder category. I am trying to produce what someone can shows...I just don't show just not driven yet I guess...

I mostly raise minis because I love them. I love the babies I like working with my mares, I would raise them if there was no real value on them...I just like them. they make my heart warm and bring a smile to my face when I am around them.

Oh yes I would like to make something from them. But if I don't I will still have them as long as my life circumstances allow it.

I will continue to breed my few mares try to upgrade my herd and just enjoy them. Would love to see one from my breeding show and win, but unless I do it I doubt anyone who shows will give me much attention

 

[JWC sr.]

You might be surprized at the results you get K9. The joy Cindy and I get from seeing someone show one of our babies to a win at any show is the next best thing to seeing one of our grandkids do so. 5 years ago we had not started showing and were just folks that liked the mini's and had been rasing them for a long time. I semi-retired and so did Cindy so we now have the time to enjoy them even more. We are addictted and love being so.

On your other subject of the prices for the big horses and how it is going to effect things in the coming years. I like you am really worried, the incidense of neglect is going up here in the metro-plex of Houston as is shown by the increase in rescue calls. I personally have seen this thru a good friend that works in that area.

The Killer buyers are not as prevalent as they used to be, but they are still there. Now days they only buy the fat horses we used to call pleasure riders, as the death rate during transport is too high on the skinny or ill horses. That sucks as far as I am concerned. but the economics of the thing is working for them. Now days you see nice looking horses on POTS crammed together being hauled into Mexico which is 300 miles or so to the south being hauled down US 59 and the humane socities etc are powerless to do anything about it under the present days laws.

The number of horses that they are seeing has increased dramtically and is sickening. I was raised in a home where horses were animals that we worked on, but they were still viewed as friends particullarly by us kids. As an adult I moved off the farm so to speak and only had performance horses that we used on the weekends. But the love of the horses stayed with us.

This ban on slaughter is a real nightmare as all it has done is drive down prices and making horses disposable items for many people and forced the horses to be transported 100's of miles in really poor conditions. Give me the choice of a quick death or a lingering neglected life and I will take the first please. OH!

I would have much rather have seen tight regulations on methods of slaughter, humane treatment during transport, prior to slaughter and an end use than what we have now which is basically unregulated in-humane treatment of animals that don't deserve it.

Good luck with your foal crop this year, I hope you have your first national champion in it.

 

[HGFarm]

Matt,

By looking the other way, and banning slaughter here in the U.S., this is not helping the horses that are sent to slaughter at all. Now, on top of everything else, they are shipped out of the country while enduring how many hours on a truck with no feed and water, to other locations, to be slaughtered anyway?!! Banning it here has NOT fixed a thing.

Yes, I have seen more and more stories of horses being dumped, and neglected, because now there is not the outlet for those that folks can't or dont want to care for anymore.

Being involved in ranching for years, the trucks that horses are shipped on are packed for a reason- just like the trucks that are hauling beef, sheep, etc.... Less movement as animals mill or fight back there means less liklihood the truck is going to have a wreck or tip over.

Have you ever driven a truck with a bunch of livestock thrashing in it, or a good example is a truck with a water tank on the bank that is not quite full?? The load going back and forth starts to control the truck- pretty much 'rocking the boat'. So, the trucks are packed tight so that animals are not running up and down in it and causing an accident as the truck sways.

It would be nice if everyone could humanely euthanize their horses. It would be nice if everyone had the mind set to even want to do such a thing. Some folks look at it this way... "The old nag not only cost me more in recent vet bills, but is 'no good' any more, and if I have it euthanized, I have to pay for another vet call and the euthanization, and then pay to dispose of it as well when that's done! If we take it to the auction, at least we might get back part of our vet bill and we wont have to deal with all that".

I have seen this time and time again....

I have also seen many folks who enjoy owning animals (of any kind) but when it comes time to euthanize, they just 'dont have the stomache' for it, or the heart, or whatever.... It's part of being a responsible owner! They love Fluffy too much to have them put to sleep... so the illness and misery drags on and on, way past the 'quality of life' stage.

I dont care to get into the breeding part of the conversation either, it is so much more than that.....

And yes, I see on the news, more animals are being dumped- large and small animals. Our economy is in a slump, and with folks losing their jobs, the high forclosure rates, etc.. people are not interested in what happens to their pets. The news the other night here showed real estate agents showing up at homes that folks have deserted and left tons of garbage, possessions and THEIR PETS behind.. they are walking off and leaving EVERYTHING!

The humane societies are full, the rescues are full and needing donations, and there is no other outlet for an old horse that someone will not or can not euthanize now that slaughter houses here are closed.

In 1990 there were 346,000 horses slaughtered in the U.S. and 70,000 sent to Canada for slaughter. This was $156 MILLION in horse meat exported from the U.S. In 2002, there were 42,000 slaughtered here and another 29,000 shipped to Canada to slaughter (this has been going on a long time) for a revenue of $40 million dollars for horsemeat. Since 1996, the slaughter numbers have been decreasing... and I see more and more horse or animal rescues popping up all over that are full and cannot take in any more, and hear of more horror stories involving more rescues, animals being dumped, etc...

Just a few things I observe as I go along in life...

I wonder how many of you have seen the manner in which horses are slaughtered. The abuse that they receive in the hours leading to their horrible death far outweighs the abuse that some horses receive in private homes. Maybe I would feel differently if the slaughtering were more humane, but it isn't and that is fact.

Im not going to comment on the breeding thing, because this subject keeps coming up and everyone here has said their piece time and time again. My only opinion now is that I think everyone should take responsibility for their OWN herd, small or large, and make the decisions that you feel is best. But if you really feel the breed is overpopulated, perhaps the solution should start with you, rather than waiting for everyone else to stop their breeding, why don't you set an example and stop your own first.

As far as slaughter, I would like to share the process, for anyone who doesn't.

First is the travel. Horses are loaded onto enlarged stock trailers. They are overloaded. The horses barely have room to move. If they go to the bathroom it is practically on another horses, that is how packed they are. The trips on the trailers sometimes lasted for several hours and the horses were never fed and were never given water. Some horses died during travel and they were left there, in the trailer, with all of the other live horses. Upon arriving at the slaughter house they were put into holding corrals, if they were still alive anyway. When it was their turn they would be brought in. One common practice for "sedating" the horse was to stab it in the back several times, this would paralyze it, but the animal was still very much alive. It was then hung by its back hooves upside down. Then its throat was slit, most times the horses were still alive when they had to endure this, and then they bled to death.

I for one am happy that the slaughter houses were banned, and anyone who is OK letting a horse experience this process should think what it would be like enduring it themselves.

If there was a slaughter house, that did it differently, humanely, safe travel, clean kill, food, water, etc, etc, than maybe I feel differently about THAT particular one. But any hat I had read about didn't waste their time or money on being nice to the horse.

Why not humanely euthanize any horse who wouldn't have a fair shot at a good life? Why would you WANT slaughter?

 

[maestoso]

I am not denying the valid points in support of slaughter, but like most things, both sides have strong points. Call me naive, a wuss, a hippie, young and stupid, inexperienced, whatever floats your boat really, but I am glad slaughter was banned, and I hope that the US sets the example for the other slaughter houses world wide. I just think there are better ways to take care of things......

I would rather pay for my neighbor to put their horse down, and bury it in my own backyard, then know that they sent it to the slaughter house.

I don't agree with the death penalty either, and I think people are responsible for global warming, and I don't agree with testing on animals . . . . so there you have it!

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

Why not humanely euthanize any horse who wouldn't have a fair shot at a good life? Why would you WANT slaughter?

I for one am for slaughter and see it as a necessary evil... The ban of slaughter has only made things worse as many have already stated... And what makes one think that those who are neglecting their horses would pay to have a vet come out and humanely euthanize the horse, when they couldn't put the money into feed, hay, farrier, health etc? And just what would we do with all of the euthanized horses? Cremation of large animals such as a horse is expensive.. My family has the ability to bury the animals we have lost or had to put down on our own land but there are many places where you can not do this..

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Horse slaughter is still legal here, and there are still a few licensed Abattoirs that take horses for human consumption.

One positive side of the stupid "Horse Passport" debacle has been that a horse cannot go out of the country or to an Abattoir without it's passport, and all mine have "Not for Human Consumption" stamped on them by our breed Society.

I do not understand how my Knacker (meatmen) can make a good living collecting "fallen stock" and dispatching animals at the farms - cattle, sheep, pigs, horses etc- and he does make a good living, and yet there are no people doing this in the states??

Is it perhaps the distances involved?

But surely withing certain areas at least, that are denser populated, there would be a call and a living to be made??

I pay $100.00 for this good man to come out at any time of the day or night, quickly and humanely dispatch any animal and take it away.

I have no problems with horses being eaten whatsoever, but I do not want my horse put through the trauma. or even possible trauma of going through a slaughter house- I owe it to the animal to see it's end is a good one.

Why stop horse slaughter??

What is so different about horses??

I cringe at the idea of Korean eating dog meat- BUT I would not be so bothered by it if the animals were treated with respect and dignity.

I loathe battery conditions for animals- we have some places I can only describe as concentration camps for Ducks, Geese and Turkeys not far form where I live.

I would close them down long before I would start worrying about horse slaughter.

ALL animals that are going to be eaten deserve to be treated with kindness, sympathy and dignity, why single out horses for special treatment??

I am not nor do I ever wish to be a vegetarian but I think we owe it to all our domestic animals to make sure they have as good a life as possible, short or long, and as kind an end as they deserve.

They are bred by us for specific purposes, they deserve to be killed by us humanely.

 

[stormy]

It is interesting to me that people think slaughter of horses is banned in the US when in truth only slaughter of horses FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION is banned. Slaughter for human consumption was heavily regulated with strongly enforced laws for transport, humane handling and killing. Slaughter for pet food or rendering is not. Mexican slaughter plants are not. This law has only made suffering greater for throw away horses, it sure has not saved any horses lives or in anyway improved the treatment of horses in the US.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Stormy makes a very good point, as have others. The 'ban' on slaughter has done little but make those who supported it feel good; it has done little or NOTHING to help unwanted horses come to a kinder and more humane end.(BTW, I personally support euthanasia, and would FIND a way to pay for it--and I am fortunate that I, too, can bury on my land-but there is NO question that process IS expensive, start to finish-cost of vet, cost of backhoe-or, cost to have PRIVATE 'contractor' pick up carcass and haul it to the landfill, where yet another fee will be required(not going to do THAT with the ones I've loved...). I have heard that local pet crematoriums are trying to 'come up with' a way, and a fee, to cremate horses, but it is apparently VERY cost-prohibitive, even if they have a facility that can handle horses, as even most minis are considerably larger than the largest dog, for example.)There is NO LONGER a rendering company around here who will come and pick up horse carcasses, even for a fee(the fee out where I live was around $150-200, BEFORE the company simply QUIT doing it-supposedly due to pressure from groups like PETA...yes, another 'wonderful benefit' from PETA and their ilk...)-the hard truth is that a LOT of horse owners are NOT going to make use of humane euthanasia, period. Now, dead horses are being found out on the mesas around Albuquerque! People need to wake up and smell the coffee; QUIT BREEDING unless you KNOW there is a good home waiting(and that means your own, if necessary)--for ANY BREED, ANY HORSE!!!!!!!!! With miniatures, I believe it is more likely that they will simply be passed from owner to owner, and/or, at some point, neglected to death, than go to slaughter; with larger horses, it's off to the kill buyer(although, if you read some of the horse-oriented forums, you will see that those who can bring themselves to attend livestock sales in their area are now reporting that thin, underweight horses are being ABANDONED in the sale pens, even by the kill buyers, because they aren't worth it!!(I do NOT go to sales anymore; I CANNOT afford to take on horses to save, and I CANNOT handle the anger and despair I feel over how many are ending up--it is a lose-lose situation, so I have to stay away.)

Rabbit is right; a decently humane end should be our responsibility for ALL animals, even those that will end up being consumed as food--period. THAT is where our efforts should realistically be focused.

Margo

 

[fourhorses]

Another problem this brings up... alot of the Anti slaughter people, love rare animals..you know the kind that are kept in Zoo's. Guess what the Zoo's feed those rare animals? Horse meat... and when I worked at the Oakland Zoo...that is all they could afford to feed, is horse meat.

Are you kidding me?! And the pro-slaughter people don't? The first sentence in this paragraph might be the dumbest thing I've read on this subject yet - and on any board for that matter. For a subject that's been beat into the ground that's saying quite a lot.

If that got across the internet for others besides this board to read you'd be harassed as long as the day is long.

I highly doubt at this stage of the game that anyone is going to get anyone else to change their mind. Each side screams "propaganda" against the other and each side wants to win. Each side has an opinion but both sides keep breeding. It's ridiculous to put all the blame on backyard breeders when some of you have expected top dollar for less than perfect results. This stuff about getting your money back that you've put into the horse........hogwash. Just 'cause you spent 2 grand on training doesn't mean the training is worth it. Just because a bloodline says "this breeding should produce a winner" surely doesn't mean it will. That's quite obvious on the sale boards all over.

FWIW I attended several KY kill-buyer auctions several months ago. I was there flipping lips on the TB's in the kill pen and guess what one of the top kb's was buying? Yep, minis.....any that came through. Usually less than $100 with the foal at side going for $25-35 as it's being weaned right there in the auction ring at less than 2 months old. He's been doing it for almost 2 years now. And you know what else? They have a lovely farm and are now breeding many, many minis. It's a postcard perfect farm and it's going to try it's hardest to put you all out of business. Will he? Of course not. But he's got the money and nothin' to lose. His gain? Dirt cheap minis. A nice gluton of slop breeding because of inbreeding (oops, line breeding when it works) and not giving a hoot who the stallion mounts whether it's a good match or not.

 

[maestoso]

You lost me a bit on this one . . . .

 

[Elsa]

Horse slaughter is still legal here, I have no problems with horses being eaten whatsoever, but I do not want my horse put through the trauma. or even possible trauma of going through a slaughter house- I owe it to the animal to see it's end is a good one.

as far as I know, the only process (with varying methods) to kill something for consumption is to render the animal unconscious, hang it up and let it bleed out. Your statement is therefore contradictory. If a horse is euthanized, it is not used for human consumption as it has been injected with the drugs to make it go to sleep.

 

[Sue_C.]

to kill something for consumption is to render the animal unconscious, hang it up and let it bleed out

No, it is NOT simply knocked unconscious...it is KILLED first...then hung. What they use is generally a "humane killer", which is a retractable bolt that DOES instantly kill the animal...of any type or breed.

 

[fourhorses]

to kill something for consumption is to render the animal unconscious, hang it up and let it bleed out

No, it is NOT simply knocked unconscious...it is KILLED first...then hung. What they use is generally a "humane killer", which is a retractable bolt that DOES instantly kill the animal...of any type or breed.

I don't know how they do it in your neck of the woods but the animal is rendered UNCONSCIOUS and hung to bleed out in the US. The animal is rarely dead when it's hooked.

 

[Sue_C.]

The animal is rarely dead when it's hooked.

I find this difficult to beleive. Slaughter houses have to go by the letter of the law...anyplace that I know of...and there is no way that the law will/would, allow an animal to suffer such a prolonged/painful death. There are random inspections taking place all the time.

I don't know how they do it in your neck of the woods

In our neck of the woods...and anyplace else in Canada, that I have EVER heard of, they are killed first, as well.

When I was in Alberta, for example, a friend of mine would take any of her own, or her client's horses that had come to the "end"; directly to the Knackers herself. Almost exacltly as Rabbit has already stated...you just walk the horse into a quiet area, and it is done...no fuss, no pain...it is OVER. For many of you who decalar that euthanasia is superior...I have also read articles telling how many times the horse is not dead, but has been found to simply be paralized. Buried alive, most likely...in many cases that will never be known.

In our area, there is a zoo where one may take a horse where it can wanter around in a lush pasture until the day arrives, that it is needed. They too, use the retractable bolt, that delivers immediate/painless death. I am lucky, I have several acres of land...and have the room to bury my much-loved horses and other old friends when their time has come...but many do not have that luxury.

 

[tagalong]

I don't know how they do it in your neck of the woods but the animal is rendered UNCONSCIOUS and hung to bleed out in the US. The animal is rarely dead when it's hooked.

That may happen in some out of the way place - but NO - the animal is usually VERY dead when it is hooked - which is right after it has died and so it is easy to bleed out. And yes - as I have said earlier in this thread - I know that for a fact - having seen it for myself. More than once.

And that was in the Alberta neck of the woods - not exactly the middle of nowhere.

But again - that goes contrary to what many anti-slaughter-at-all-costs types want to believe - so simply saying that on some horse boards has brought me all kinds of grief. I simply cannot be right - because what I saw was not cruel enough!

because a bloodline says "this breeding should produce a winner" surely doesn't mean it will.

Yes, fourhorses - as many of us have said repeatedly in many, many threads...

Yep, minis.....any that came through. Usually less than $100 with the foal at side going for $25-35 as it's being weaned right there in the auction ring at less than 2 months old. He's been doing it for almost 2 years now. And you know what else? They have a lovely farm and are now breeding many, many minis. It's a postcard perfect farm and it's going to try it's hardest to put you all out of business. Will he? Of course not. But he's got the money and nothin' to lose. His gain? Dirt cheap minis. A nice gluton of slop breeding because of inbreeding (oops, line breeding when it works) and not giving a hoot who the stallion mounts whether it's a good match or not.

Well. slop breeding, as you put it - is not going to pay off in the end - and that guy will be hip deep in minis he cannot sell.... and he obviously does not care. But I am confused as to what your point was... other than pointing out what an opportunist this guy is... and that a glut of cheap minis being run through the sales rings enables this guy to build his herd...

 

[maestoso]

Tagalong, I don't think anyone is saying that you are wrong. Yo saw what you saw. But, like anyone else who hasn't been to EVERY slaughter house, you can't speak for them all, just the one that yo saw. There ARE slaughter houses that do things right, you know this because you saw it yourself. And there ARE slaughter houses who are cruel and abusive. People know this because they have seen it for themselves.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have NEVER heard of an animal being stunned deliberately and bled out alive except in Kosher and Halal butchering.

And, I have to say, that both forms of ritual slaughter are so very carefully scrutinized by the state that in some cases I would rather have them killed in this way as respect for the animal is built into the ceremony.

I have witnessed Halal/Kosher and "european" methods of slaughter and all were humane- maybe a lot of slaughter houses here could still get better on the "respect and dignity" front but they are trying.

Just for the record- if anyone stopped to think about this for a moment, if the animal were not completely stunned and it was "strung up by it's hind legs" etc- well, the average horse weighs 1200.00lbs would YOU want to be anywhere in the vicinity, let alone a steer in the same predicament.

If the animal is completely stunned, ie out of it, what difference does it make??

I am only concerned with the animals welfare, not the sensibilities of those people who do not think we should eat the pretty ponies, sorry.

All my horses were EUTHANISED ie humanely destroyed- by a Knacker, no Vet involved.

Shot with a captive bolt dead before they quietly hit the floor, this is my preferred manner of dispatch for a large animal.

This is the method used in the slaughter houses here, too, captive bolt, but the animal is not loose in the stall as it was in one video I watched, they are in a crush with their head through a "V" shape- undignified, but the easiest way of immobilising them quickly and it was all over in seconds.

Still not the way I choose to have my horses euthanized though I do not wish them to go through a slaughter house, so they cannot be used for human consumption- I have no problem with them being eaten but, unless they are butchered in a slaughterhouse they cannot be used for eating, they have to go for dog food or rendering, that is the law.

 

[sdmini]

On the slaughter issue technically you are both right and both wrong. A bolt gun to the brain stops brain function rendering them brain dead instantaneously. They are not just unconscious, no more than a person shot in the brain is going to shake it off and go back to their normal routine. In a matter of a few minutes the blow from a bolt gun will stop the animal’s heart and render the animal's brain and body gone.

All meat animals are bled before processing, cattle, chickens, hogs, sheep and yes horses. The reasons for this is if they are not blood will remain in the meat making the taste and texture off, making the cut of meat weigh more yet not yielding more and of course making it much redder. What I am about to say may make some upset but I am providing facts not a colored article based to influence your ideas one way or another. An animal (or person) with a non beating heart will not bleed so while the animal may be brain dead with no chance of recovery the heart at the time of bleeding is still in fact beating.

I have little love for radicals who have closed off their ears to anything but their version of the truth where as I have the utmost respect for animal activist like Temple Grande. While she may not fit in the typical activist mold she looked at one aspect, how cattle were processed, and not only did she think that there was a better way she proved it. Many processing plants and cattle yards have implemented her cattle working designs into their operations. She studied and used the cattle’s own instants’ and behaviors to make them move in the alleys and runways as calmly as if they were going to the bale feeder. My favorite quote of hers is, "they are not product till they are dead, till then we need to treat them with dignity and respect." She worked with in the system to make it better for all instead of bringing about a piece of legislation that has single handedly done more damage to the welfare of horses than anything prior. Ironic isn’t it.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I agree about Temple Grande- I watched a programme on her pioneering within the industry and I was amazed- I was expecting the same old "Cow Whisperer" nonsense and instead I got a person who some would still consider "handicapped" speaking more common sense than I have heard in a long, long time.