Defects. deformities, normal, etc.

[Becky]

There seems to be a general concensus that anything small is a dwarf. Any horse that has a pretty head (according to the AMHA breed standard) is a dwarf. A long body and short legs is a dwarf. All underbites are dwarfs.

These theories have been made by those that simply do not approve of conformation that is not what they personally like. That is all they are: theories. And many are incorrect. To this date, there are no genetic tests available to isolate what may or may not be genetic issues. Granted, there are surely genetic defects that can arise just as they can in all species on earth be it animal or human. BUT, I know as a long time breeder, that there ARE environmental and nutritional issues that cause defects while a foal is in utero and beyond. Genetics has nothing to do with it!

To state that all 'defects' are genetic dwarfs is totally inaccurate and impossible!

What is a defect??? I personally AM breeding for short, dishy heads with large wideset eyes and tiny muzzles. This is exactly the type of head that the uneducated are calling dwarfs. Are they? I don't think so!!

Long backs and short legs used to be the norm back in the 80's and early 90's. Were they dwarfs? Again, I don't think so. Were dwarfs used for breeding. Yes, there were dwarfs used for breeding. Were they used extensively? I doubt it. Most severe dwarf mares would be incapable of having foals and most die at an early age. Dwarf stallions would be unlikely to reach taller mares without help. However, it took smaller horses of whatever conformation to reduce the overall size of the breed. That is a fact. Again, whether those horses were genetic anamolys or something else is entirely UNKNOWN.

Heavier bone structure was common too in the early days. Dwarfs? No. Just since the early 90's alone, the serious breeders have worked extensively to produce a more refined, more proportionate horse in miniature size. That meet the BREED STANDARD.

Sadly, all of this hysteria is hurting the breed and hurting sales. New people read this mis-information and become frightened by what they see and hear.

We need to continue to advertise and promote with correct information, the worlds most unique and special horse, the American MINIATURE Horse!

 

[RobinRTrueJoy]

BRAVO BECKY!!!!

 

[Jill]

I think there's a predisposition with some people to classify many things as an indicator of dwarfism when they may be "just" a conformation flaw or even something different from the preferred type. Not everything "wrong" or "not as nice as it could be" can be attributed to the dwarf gene.

It is good to learn and since there is no genetic test at this time, in a lot of cases, we only use our best guess and what one breeder thinks may not be what I personally think. I'm still looking at another thread going and trying to see what's being held out as indicators, and just not seeing it. I'm not seeing "perfection" (do we ever) but I'm also not seeing something that says dwarf to me, either.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Well I agree and disagree. FIrst off dwarfs were used extensivley.. Bond Tiny Tim is one who most will agree there is no dispute was a dwarf and he is in plenty of pedigrees so I am sure that yes he covered several mares as did others that is a reality there is no need to deny that at this point.

I personally dont think anything small is a dwarf by any means. I have seen some tiny very correct horses and some larger very incorrect horses.

I dont think a "pretty head" equals a dwarf on any size horse.

I do think that it is not hysteria.. I think that bottom line it is an issue in our breed and we all need to think about it. We can say there is no test so lets get on with life but in the long run that is hurting our breed.

There is always things that are subjective from great conformation, to show quality, to herd sire material to dwarf characteristics a horse may show.

This whole breed is filled with so much misinformation I am not sure if it is becasue many didnt own horses before minis or didnt breed before ( I was one of the not breeding before) or what but I see so many horses advertised for something that even conformationally they just are not suited for let alone type which again is subjective.

The worst thing we can do is pretend these issues dont exisit and the best thing we can do for our clients is to tell them "our opinion" on things and urge them to talk to others- be the go between to introduce them if need be for those that were mentors to us and those that were not so they can do there own research and decide for themselves which direction they want to go.

DO follow up with our clients to see if they have any more questions or thoughts

Personally I always have thought the thing that hurts our market the most is that every horse is sold as a breeding horse or breeding pairs(just look at the sales page) becouse somehow .. for breeders to say this is not a breeding quality horse is looked at as a failure of some sort- so instead we as a whole DEFEND why we breed or sell as breeding stock these horses with bad hind ends, not so great front ends, ect. (and yes myself included I am not inany way guiltless in this)

We need to realize it is not a failure to have produced a horse that you feel isnt the quality to be bred. It is a opportunity for someone to get a pet, get a "starter" horse not for breeding but to get there feet wet in the world of minis and to learn and grow along with with us.

JMHO

 

[Buckskin gal]

I highly respect your opinion but on the other hand I see no hysteria. I do see some good discussions which offer opinions and we can keep in mind that is what they are...just opinions. Some people are very passionate about dwarf issue and want to avoid producing dwarves, if at all possible, myself included.There are some who believe the only way to not produce a dwarf is to not do any breeding but on the other hand there are those who believe if they avoid certain traits they will stand a better chance of not producing a dwarf. There is no hysteria in good education and we do have to kep our eyes and ears open to better our minis. If newbies learn early on about the problems within minis, all the better, for it will give them choices of what to do. I don't worry about these discussions hurting sales for I am all for the newbie to know all about minis be it good or not. The fact that minis can produce dwarves should not be kept a secret. I think too much was done in the beginning to hide things and look where it got our minis. As responsible people we must be learning all the time and if there are breeders who believe they can avoid producing a dwarf by selective breeding, who are we to stop them? JMHO Mary

 

[outlawridge]

IMHO, the threads about dwarfism have been very educational, not hysteria. I have contributed to some of the threads as well. I also have never gotten the impression that all small, all dishy, all whatever, are being said to be dwarfs. What I see in these threads is honesty, and a sincere desire to be selective in our breeding, promoting, and care of the breed we all love. I love the tiny horses, as I do the bigger horses, as I do all horses, and truly care about them all. For this reason, just as in anything we set our heart and mind to, we need to do our homework before we make decisions that will effect the little lives we choose to bring forth through our breeding programs, and that includes researching dwarfism. To do less, to learn less, to admit less, would be negligence IMHO. In no way does this promote hysteria, nor does it assume that all tiny muzzled, dishy headed, little minis are dwarfs. Of course, how people read or read into the information presented is entirely up to them and the poster does not assume control of that. As I have posted before, I am overjoyed that this forum is delving into the reality of dwarfism and how we all can help to reduce the numbers of dwarf and/or dwarf carriers born each year. Again, dwarf trait or characterisitic does make the horse being studied a dwarf! They MAY be a possible carrier only. And they MAY not be. However, it is good to know indicators as we all strive to breed the most correct miniatures possible.

I highly respect your opinion but on the other hand I see no hysteria. I do see some good discussions which offer opinions and we can keep in mind that is what they are...just opinions. Some people are very passionate about dwarf issue and want to avoid producing dwarves, if at all possible, myself included.There are some who believe the only way to not produce a dwarf is to not do any breeding but on the other hand there are those who believe if they avoid certain traits they will stand a better chance of not producing a dwarf. There is no hysteria in good education and we do have to kep our eyes and ears open to better our minis. If newbies learn early on about the problems within minis, all the better, for it will give them choices of what to do. I don't worry about these discussions hurting sales for I am all for the newbie to know all about minis be it good or not. The fact that minis can produce dwarves should not be kept a secret. I think too much was done in the beginning to hide things and look where it got our minis. As responsible people we must be learning all the time and if there are breeders who believe they can avoid producing a dwarf by selective breeding, who are we to stop them? JMHO Mary

Well said Buckskin Gal!

 

[Charlotte]

Well said Becky. Would someone please look for one of the old AMHR/AMHA Standard Of Perfection? I don't remember the dates when those were changed, but heavier bone, shorter legs, longer bodies were all desirable back when. We have changed what we want in the 'perfect' miniature horse of today, but that doesn't mean these 'old' characteristics are signs of a genetic abnormality.

Buckskin gal, I agree, education is good, but speculation passed off as fact is not good education. And what I see on these posts is speculation. Every conformation trait which someone doesn't personally care for is being called a genetic abnormality. this isn't education. It is mis-information.

Until we have genetic testing for the (probably) numerous dwarf traits we have no way of knowing what abnormal looking characteristics are genetic and what are caused by other influences.

Charlotte

 

[Darkstar]

"FIrst off dwarfs were used extensivley"

Where is the evidence to back this statement up? Bond Tiny Tim was obviously a dwarf. Whether or not to say he was used extensively is very subjective. If dwarves have been used as extensively as some people seems to think they have, there would be alot more dwarves than there actually are.

Are all horses with the "old style" conformation dwarves? I think probably not. More likely, is that style is just a stage in the miniature horse "transformation" in size reduction. (if that makes any sense) It has been a means to a result. ie the miniature horses we are breeding for today.

The miniature horse has changed alot in the past 20 years and I'm sure will change alot in the next 20 years. What we are breeding for today probably won't be up to the standard 20 years from now.

This dwarf hysteria is, I'm sure, have some effects on the market place especially concerning some previously named bloodlines. To address Tiny Tim specificly; he is so far back in most pedigrees that a horse, with Tiny Tim in it's pedigree, doesn't have a very high chance of carrying the dwarf gene.

Until there is a test to test for the dwarf gene. These dwarf "witch hunts" will continue to spring up.

Speaking of which;

happy halloween everyone!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

"FIrst off dwarfs were used extensivley"

Where is the evidence to back this statement up? Bond Tiny Tim was obviously a dwarf. Whether or not to say he was used extensively is very subjective. If dwarves have been used as extensively as some people seems to think they have, there would be alot more dwarves than there actually are.

But who knows how many dwarves there are born every year when most people have clearly said on this forum alone ( a small percentage of mini owners out there) that they would NEVER say they had one in fear of ruining the reputation of there horse or farm.

How many are put down and never mentioned again trust me MANY MORE then we would ever think and MANY more then are ever mentioned here

But again every flaw doesnt equal dwarf we can all agree on that

 

[targetsmom]

Thank you Becky!! I am not sure that it is quite to the level of hysteria, but perhaps "fixation". I was beginning to think that my husband and I would be considered "dwarfs" because we are both of short stature and have congenital "conformational" issues.

It has been an interesting discussion.

 

[Buckskin gal]

In no way did I mean that good education should be equated with "speculation"!!!! People do separate the difference when reading, I hope. When educating and learning it is our responsibility to separate the chaffe from the grain! My point was for all to think wisely and use what they learn to better the breed....hiding the facts [not speculations] does no service to our minis. Mary

Well said Becky. Would someone please look for one of the old AMHR/AMHA Standard Of Perfection? I don't remember the dates when those were changed, but heavier bone, shorter legs, longer bodies were all desirable back when. We have changed what we want in the 'perfect' miniature horse of today, but that doesn't mean these 'old' characteristics are signs of a genetic abnormality.

Buckskin gal, I agree, education is good, but speculation passed off as fact is not good education. And what I see on these posts is speculation. Every conformation trait which someone doesn't personally care for is being called a genetic abnormality. this isn't education. It is mis-information.

Until we have genetic testing for the (probably) numerous dwarf traits we have no way of knowing what abnormal looking characteristics are genetic and what are caused by other influences.

Charlotte

 

[Darkstar]

Very good points Lisa.

The fastest way to weed this gene out is to develop a test for it. If there was a test for it, I would bet most people would want a horse that they were considering buying tested for it.

The test has the potential to do great good and great bad. It would probably turn the miniature horse market upside down. Good for some, Bad for others. It's probably why this topic evokes to much passion in people.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I agree Darkstar the reprecussions would be long lasting however if we can all look at it maybe and I dont know this is a uneducated person on this subject talking and maybe this is to simplistic but we could look at it like LWO carriers... one is great for a breeding program and doesnt mean the horse is a throw away just test to make sure you are not breeding 2

but I do think we are a few years away from that at this point.

Bottom line is this discussion agree or disagree with things brings up all kinds of points and ideas at least to me that I may not have thought of before, or may not have agreed with before but with more discussion am open to learning and changing my mind.

 

[anita]

Thank you Becky and a big hand

Anita

 

[Katiean]

What ever happened to just plain bad conformation? An ugly head, a bad neck, long body etc... I have seen big horses with short legs, sway backs ugly necks (short and long), and very long backs are they dwarfs too?

 

[lvponies]

I have appreciated the discussions on dwarfism. No, there's no test yet, but talking about the subject helps us all to learn. Maybe some of the knowledge being shared is at this point only speculation, but maybe one day those folks will be proved right. Frankly, I'd rather the discussion be out in the open, not hidden out back behind the barn somewhere.

I don't think this leads to hysteria, but helps us open our minds to possibilities. As with anything you read, take it or leave it, but keep your mind open.

 

[Whitewave]

I have been reading every post on dwarfs and I got to say you all really got me confused. Being new to minis But haveing breed raised and train large horses I admit I really am confused beyond words...Okay please help me to understand..This horse pictured I own is a dwarf yes ?

and this1994 horse of Kobeck & Komoko Breeding Is A Dwarf too?he is 28.5

please help me to understand this

 

[mmmorgans]

Thank you BECKY!!!!!!!!

 

[maestoso]

Sometimes it seems like people are excited to find any little conformation flaw they can and call it dwarf, when really, it is just that, a flaw. There also seems to be those same posters again and again who will point out others' dwarfs, those are also the people who you never see posting pictures of their own horses. To those of you who are quick to point out those dwarf characteristics, are you as quick to do so with your own horses? Because they are sure to have flaws too. I dont blame you for posting, especially with the recent posts of people asking you to point out those characteristics on their own horses, it just seems like it is a feeding frenzie and people get so pumped about screaming DWARF DWARF DWARF!

I believe that there is such thing as a "minimal" dwarf, but I also think it is important to seperate that from conformation flaws. A horse who has a short neck isn't a dwarf, it is a horse with a short neck. A horse with a clubbed foot isn't a dwarf, it is a horse with a clubbed foot.... Breeding horses with flaws may pass on flaws, but not dwarfism. Not everyone wants a perfect halter horse, so they don't need to breed for that.

Reiners and barrel racers tend to breed for sickle hocks, because it provides them with more power for those slididng stops. Jumpers are perfectly content with cow hocks, because a perfect straight hind is actually weaker for that particular sport. Western pleasure horses tend to be bred down hill, because they like having them moving on the forhand. Halter is not the only sport out there for minis and therefor it should not be the only thing minis are bred for.

When I bought my family puppy it was a mut, and he was cheap. We couldn't afford an expensive purebred and that doesn't mean we couldn't afford proper and loving care. Our family wanted to raise a dog from a puppy so we were not interested in adopting an aged dog from a shelter.

There are mini owners out there who ARE knowledgable AND experienced and want the experience of breeding and raising a baby but can't afford the stud fees of the high quality stallions. They have every right to breed as anyone else, and "go to the rescue and adopt" isn't the easy or right answer for everyone. And just because their mare has a short neck, doesn't mean they are producing a dwarf. There are so many posts on here where people comment on those beautiful and loving pets..... those don't all have to come from rescues or accidents. Sometimes people just want to breed their own pet. Im not saying a beginner should do this, but not every experienced horse person cares to have that almost perfect horse, and that is OK.

By the way, A big fancy show horse breeding farm with several mares is more likely to produce a dwarf then the pet owner breeding her one short legged mare, once a year. This is not a breeders faults its just that the more you are producing, the more likely you are to come across these issues.

 

[runamuk]

I don't see hysteria. I see conversation and thought provoking theories. I am probably approaching from a completely different angle because I am truly interested in the entire mechanism of dwarfism. I am curious to see if there is a neccessary component of dwarfism to the breed. I am interested in finding out if there are multiple dwarf genes involved. I love speaking with those who are actually doing the research because their theories intrigue me and raise new questions. Without a test or gene isolation all we have is speculation based on characteristics common to known dwarves in miniatures and characteristic features found in other species. I enjoy hearing everyones point of view, thoughts, and opinions. I think we could do far worse and go back to hiding the whole issue in the closet.

Many characteristics pointed out by some are just general poor conformation regardless of breed of horse. Calf knees are calf knees and some dwarves also have calf knees. A short neck is a short neck and some dwarves have short necks. Other features are more cosmetic, ear size placement, tail set and carriage however when combined with other faults could be worth noting to make better breeding choices.

If breeders had continued to breed short and long to short and long we would now be discussing the american miniature weaner horse

I own one of these so feel justified in joking about it.