Gay marriage - taking a step away from progress

[ozymandias]

HELLO!!!!...You honestly believe that Obama has the principles we founded this country in????????....When he was born in Kenya.

As for Gay marriage, I am not for it as the Bible will tell you

I really appreciate your honesty. In a thread with a lot of people voicing opinions the other way I admire you voicing yours - thank you! I have one question that I have to ask though because as someone who is obviously religious and follows the bible in what your god wants of you regarding homosexuality...Do you believe in slavery? Because the bible says it's okay not only to own slaves but tells how you can acquire them, how close to death you can beat them and how to have sex with the female ones (of course unless you are a female and that would be gay which we know isn't okay in the bible). I was just wondering or are you picking and choosing what parts to follow which is basically what this whole gay rights issues is about with the churches?

 

[Jill]

Trust me, Susanne... I know exactly what socialism is. Really. I've even got some fancy things that hang on the wall to prove I know about these big economic terms

 

[susanne]

Sorry, Jill, but I forgot about your degree in economics and history. (I don't remember if they are Bachelor's, Master's or Doctorate)

You accuse others of drinking the kool-aid -- you probably need to pee by now.

(Mary Lou, if you want to ban me for this, it was well worthwhile...)

 

[Jill]

The American Banker's Association, the Institute of Business and Finance, the American College and almost 20 years of professional continuing education in the industry... Plus working with clients to help them acquire "The American Dream" in the early 90's and then obtaining the various security and insurance licenses I needed to build up a money management and financial planning practice through which I earn my living by helping my clients grow and protect their life savings. These things, of course, have also contributed to my appreciation of capitalism and my ability to recognize socialism when I see it.

Did you want to compare 1099's in addition to words?

I'm hardly alone in recognizing Obama as a socialist, and of course, I never carried his torch in 2008 either. I knew I didn't like the hopey-changey sugar-coated spin on socialism from the get go

AND, as to kool aid and peeing... got the blinders on? I mean, really now, Susanne? How are we better as a Nation today than we were on January 20, 2009 when Obama took office???

 

[tagalong]

Trust me, Susanne... I know exactly what socialism is. Really. I've even got some fancy things that hang on the wall to prove I know about these big economic terms

Well then, somehow you (and Glenn Beck & Rush and a host of others) are not always using that word correctly or seem to have misplaced its actual meaning along the way. It has now just become a hot-button word to point fingers with - much like Communist! was in the past - and the majority of people who use it could not give you an accurate definition. Ditto for Marxist. Actually, even more so for that one.

Oh, yes, the old crap about Obama being born in Kenya...
Do you honestly believe that, if it were true, the GOP would not have brought it to light, either during the last election or more recently? If it were true, the Republican powers that be would have to be stupid or equally corrupt.

If there was even a modicum of doubt about that - Hillary and/or the McCain campaign would have rightly been all over it. I am sure they checked into every dark corner they could - they were not fools - and found nothing because there is nothing to find beyond a birth in Hawaii. I still want to hear the Birthers explanation of how the birth announcement appeared in the Honolulu newspaper back then and then was saved on microfilm as all old newspaper archives were - decades ago. Oh - I know - some evil person (probably an Islamic terrorist) put that announcement in the paper back then knowing that decades later, Obama would be elected. Uh huh. Riiiiight.

I wish people could stick to actual topics of concern as opposed to fairy tales...

And when we look to Sheriff Joe and Donald Trump as sages on that subject, it is just sad. They both will say anything to get into the news and Trump backed down as everyone knew he would. He just uses hot button topics to get attention and promote whatever his current project is. And Arpaio's "investigation" has amounted - and will amount - to nothing... unless they start making things up.

But I digress as well... back on topic.

I'm looking forward to the debates this fall!

I'm not. Not at all. Oh, I would be if people could discuss such things without venom and vitriol - but as we saw in 2008, that is impossible. And I am not just talking about here - but Out There...

 

[susanne]

That's good, Jill. Some business colleges, institutes and trade schools are quite good, and not everyone sees the need for a well-rounded university education. I guess I'm just one of those intellectual, liberal elitists.

...as for Obama being socialist...So-called "socialist" programs (V.A. Administration, Social Security, Education to name just a few) are a world away from Socialism. Just as democracy and Democrat don't necessarily mean the same thing. (The joke there is too obvious!)

As for our 1099s, I've made my life choices according to my values and what I truly wanted out of life, not according to my paycheck. I've never regretted a thing. I'll put my happiness and the good that I've done for others up against that of anyone.

 

[susanne]

Sorry, Mary Lou. I've seen months of political bullying and finally had to say something. I'm done now and will behave.

 

[Jill]

Susanne, I'll grant you your Liberal self assessment without any argument but I hope you'll refrain from any more outward reflections about me personally. I will continue to show you that same courtesy. Whatever you may want to believe, nothing about how and where I come by my education, expertise and initiative has negatively impacted my economic, business or personal success. My self esteem is a-ok, too

 

[Riverrose28]

Danielle E, your post was wonderful. Change is coming! Not to many decades ago Native Ameican did not have the right to vote, even though they were here first, now they do. Only five decades ago African Americans and Whites couldn't marry, now they can. Soon all the states will allow gay marriage, it's coming. We all need to stand for Liberty for all, not just a few.

what really got me today, was listening to a friend that went to one of Mr. Romneys meetings, he told me that Mr. Romney wants to remove some of OSHA's requirements. This has distrubed me more then his stance on a womans right to chose.

As for the statement about President Obama being born in Kenya, I have no comment at this time.

 

[JennyB]

Although if you know anything about what it takes to form a scientific theory which I'm sure you do then you know just how much work, testing, proving, more testing and more proving, experiments etc that goes into researching a scientific "theory". As opposed to religion which by it's sheer nature requires nothing more than "faith". Faith that indeed the world is only 7000 years old, faith that there was a giant world wide flood with waters higher than Mt. Everest, faith that although it would be scientifically impossible to fit two of every species into a small wooden boat (let alone get them there from the far reaching corners of the planet) - it never the less happened etc, etc. These things require no scientific testing because there is no scientific evidence to say any of them are real. Science and Faith don't mix well

There is MUCH proof to back up the Bible and less proof of "scientific" knownledge that we have honestly evolved from Monkeys!...If that were so and primitive "Man" was evolving all the hundreds of thousands of years that scientists claim, we should be asking why don't we have the hypothetical ape-like ancestor, the real missing link? Or, why don't we have the required intermediate forms? How can such change happen? The claim that transitional individuals were few in number, and thus unlikely to be fossilized and discovered, rings hollow. The fact is, we don't have them! The evolution claims are only stories. In their story, man and apes diverged from the imaginary ancestor some seven million years ago. Surely some would be fossilized. Evolution is best understood as an anti-God origin myth, attempting to explain man's existence without a Creator. We can do better.......

There is a higher being which is GOD...He has and can do anything, including have 2 of every animal come into an ark. There is proof that Pharoahs army went into the red sea...there is proof that Sodom and Gomarrah existed and was burned. There is proof that the 6 day war happened. There are many examples in the Bible that scientists and geologists have actually proven really did happened.

How does science know that the world is hundreds and thousands upon thousands of years old? ...we were watching a program on tv last night and it was about Yellowstone. What really intriged me was that supposedly it had erupted twice in it's existance..how they determined that I don't know. Was there was a reporter there when it happened?....Of course not!..When St Helen's erupted, they were amazed at what happened and have learned a lot, why, because "WE"--"Man" was here when she erupted!....they were amazed that plants could grow through the ash so quickly. They were amazed that there are fish in the lake now and there is no scientific proof of how those fish got there!.

Do you ever wonder why the scientists say, "well this is what happened and this is how old it is"....how do they really know? Do you honestly believe that we come from a single-celled microorganisms that were the first forms of life to develop on Earth, approximately 3–4 billion years ago??

There is proof of many things yes and very true things, and one of the many is that this world is only 7000 years old and that comes from God through the Bible. God made everything! Why is it so easy for you to believe what scientists say, yet so hard to believe in God and the Bible?...I know this is totally OFF the subject, but we feel very passionate about this.......If you can prove to me that we come from Apes let me know how???

Jenny

 

[JennyB]

I really appreciate your honesty. In a thread with a lot of people voicing opinions the other way I admire you voicing yours - thank you! I have one question that I have to ask though because as someone who is obviously religious and follows the bible in what your god wants of you regarding homosexuality...Do you believe in slavery? Because the bible says it's okay not only to own slaves but tells how you can acquire them, how close to death you can beat them and how to have sex with the female ones (of course unless you are a female and that would be gay which we know isn't okay in the bible). I was just wondering or are you picking and choosing what parts to follow which is basically what this whole gay rights issues is about with the churches?

No I don't believe in slavery. It's hard to translate what the Bible through God is saying without really, really studying it and having someone help you with the reasons for what happened and why. I will just give you a tiny bit of what my feelings are.

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God is the same yesterday, today and forever, but people are not. Ancient cultures had practices that are hard for us to understand today. God dealt with the ancient Hebrews in ways they could understand. He didn't tell them they had to throw out everything they had ever believed about what society should look like, but He did give them new rules that worked with the way they thought, not against it, to gradually teach them better ways.

studying the history of Christianity was that in the first few centuries after Jesus died (that's almost 2000 years ago now!), Christians were doing different things with their slaves than non-Christians.

The first Christians lived in an empire ruled by Rome which covered most of the land surrounding the Mediterranean Sea. In the Roman Empire, lots of people owned slaves, and those who were not Christians treated them very badly, as if they were animals and not people! Although some Christians owned slaves as well, they believed that those slaves were people and just as valuable to God as the Emperor himself! In fact, many Christians decided to do something really amazing: they freed their slaves (the long word for that is manumission, pronounced man-you-mish-un).

In other words, although Christians loved reading the Bible and saw that in Exodus God's followers owned slaves, they believed that because Jesus came to make us all equal, it wasn't right for some people to be owned by other people the way we own dogs and cats and sheep and things. So they set their slaves free and made it possible for them to be full citizens in the Empire (which means they gave them some money and possibly also gave them the same last name as the slave-owner so that they would have a new identity).

Sadly, lots of Christians forgot this in the centuries that followed and for a long time started owning slaves again. But it was also Christians in England and Christians in America who started the movements to stop slavery once and for all.

Christian archeological sites was slave names listed as church leaders and slaves being buried among free and wealthy citizen Christians with no distinctions between their burial modes.

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There is so much in the Bible that I still have trouble understanding, it just takes time, although I have no doubts that God exists, he made everything and God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit or one.

Jenny

 

[ohmt]

Jenny-i am sorry, but evolution does NOT state we come from monkeys!!! I love hearing the bible vs science arguments when it is obvious the people have not studied anything but the bible (and even that's usually rusty)

 

[JennyB]

Jenny-i am sorry, but evolution does NOT state we come from monkeys!!! I love hearing the bible vs science arguments when it is obvious the people have not studied anything but the bible (and even that's usually rusty)

I did not mean Monkey's like today, but was referring to primitive "Man"...which of course the scientists say we both come from. I believe strongly in studying all sorts of things. I don't just read the Bible, but am sorry for those who don't and I am sorry you feel that the Bible is "rusty"...

......I can't make people believe in something they don't want to "ever" know or believe in, but if I am asked something specific I will give the best answer I can give. God's Bible is NOT Rusty!

Jenny

 

[ozymandias]

If you can prove to me that we come from Apes let me know how???

Jenny

Jenny, I can't think of one evolutionary biologist who would ever say we come from Apes! I think you need to rethink who you're listening to.

There is proof of many things yes and very true things, and one of the many is that this world is only 7000 years old and that comes from God through the Bible.

Jenny

I'm sorry Jenny I mean no disrespect but when someone makes a statement as completely ridiculous as this I know that trying to talk to them in a rational way is a complete waste of time. The earth is NOT and I can't repeat that enough times, the earth is NOT 7000 years old. That's as absurd as saying the water volume of the Pacific ocean would fit in a soup bowl.

Jenny-i am sorry, but evolution does NOT state we come from monkeys!!! I love hearing the bible vs science arguments when it is obvious the people have not studied anything but the bible (and even that's usually rusty)

 

[ohmt]

Are you talking Neanderthals (excuse my spelling), of which their remains have been found and studied all over the world? That's Sociology 101 right there-i think i have an extra book from my freshman year of college that you could have if you'd like.

While i do think the bible is rusty (it was written by people, not God), that's not what i said

i said those who tend to quote the bible are often rusty on their knowledge of it. I wasn't talking about you in particular (i stopped reading what you typed after the monkey comment),but about people in general that seem to bring up the bible vs science argument.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

The earth is NOT and I can't repeat that enough times, the earth is NOT 7000 years old.

I am sure that was just a joke, no one would actually believe the earth is only 7000 years old, right?

Thats like believing a Jewish guy, who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove all evil force from your soul that is present in humanity, because a rib women was convinced, by talking to a snake, to eat from a magical tree. .

Now if thats not a fairy tale, i dont know what is!

 

[susanne]

I know many wonderful, caring Christians and respect their right to believe as they wish, but my sense of right and wrong comes not from religious teaching, but from my parents and from my life experiences. I refuse to let any religion, social group, government or whatever override my sense of humanity and tell me that hatred and bigotry are okay when directed at those who differ from us.

And, I'm sorry, but I don't buy it when people say they can't accept homosexuality, but -- OH! NO! -- they would never judge them, and of course they love them. This is the religious equivalent of "Well bless your heart!"

 

[ozymandias]

I am sure that was just a joke, no one would actually believe the earth is only 7000 years old, right?

Yes, Jenny believes it read her post!

I'm not sure where that leaves the known and recorded human settlements existing 8000 years ago in Turkey, Nigeria, China, the Southwestern USA, Scotland, Ireland, England, Norway. 9000 years ago we lived in semi permanent houses and made boats, 10,000 years ago humans were hunting mammoths and domesticated plants like wheat and barley the list goes on. Guess no one told them they couldn't exist on a world not yet created. But if you can convince people the earth is 7000 years old then how much easier it would be to convince you that homosexuals should be out to death (and certainly not allowed to marry).

 

[lil hoofbeats]

I did not mean Monkey's like today, but was referring to primitive "Man"...which of course the scientists say we both come from. I believe strongly in studying all sorts of things. I don't just read the Bible, but am sorry for those who don't and I am sorry you feel that the Bible is "rusty"...

......I can't make people believe in something they don't want to "ever" know or believe in, but if I am asked something specific I will give the best answer I can give. God's Bible is NOT Rusty!

Someone told me something one time that i thought was pretty interesting, if all the atheist left the USA, it would loose 93% of the National Academy of Sciences, but less than 1% of the prison population.

So as a true Christian would say, i hate the sin, but not the sinner.

In this case i hate the belief, but i care about the believer.

 

[Ashley]

I have read every post on this topic but stay pretty quiet. As many know, I do not hide, I am openly gay. I also have a beautiful, amazing, bright and intellegant 6 month old daughter. While I would probably never get married if I was allowed to, I would have at one time. I also would love to see many of my fellow "family" have that right if they so wish.

The bible also states "we are created in his image" and he created some people gay, just like he created some people straight. Anybody that knows me, knows that I tried and tried hard to be something other than I am. It wasn’t until I finally gave up trying to be something different that I found peace and happiness. Life finally came together.

I am not a bad mom, a bad daughter, a bad sister or a bad friend because I am gay. I am a great mother and have an amazing daughter to prove it. I am not doing her or anybody else in this society any harm by being who I am.

I have never understood how some can believe parts of the bible but not all of it. The problem with the bible is that it can be taken many different ways.

I seen something posted somewhere one day, it was something like this “ Do you really think god is going to judge somebody for being gay, but not judge your for judging/hating them? “ really? Last I check it wasn’t anybody’s job to judge anybody else.