Gay marriage - taking a step away from progress

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One of many reasons I so respect the Jewish faith is that it is a religion based upon always questioning everything. Anything worth believing stands up to questioning and debate, and is not based solely upon blind trust. Who are you to questions? I say who are you to not use the brain that you credit god to have given you.

Also, we need to remember that there are Christians who are very supportive of LGBT, including the Episcopalian Church (or at least half of it...). Sadly, the Quakers (at least their bigger, more conservative congregations) do not, which shocks and disappoints me, after all they have done for civil rights.
 
Agree to disagree
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LGBT-lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender

I won't laugh-i didn't know what it meant the first couple times i came across it either
 
Psalms is one of my favorites.
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Please do not be sad for me.
I'd never be sad for you
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. I'm happy for you. You, Jenny and I couldn't be on more opposite sides of a fence when it comes to religion yet the conversation has remained civil and polite.
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Well i did not even notice my phone took so long to post my answer before! I apologize for being redundant
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For sure lots of things make me think. I think it is difficult to understand how Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven without dying and then I realize that it does not matter since God did it who I am I to question how He did it.
"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." Buddah.

There's a reason there are thousands of things in the bible that are completely contrary to common sense and scientific fact...
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Question it! You evolved to have the most powerful brain on the planet. If you we're supposed to question things why do you have a brain?

Here's one for you...

"If" there was a worldwide flood that flooded the entire world to 24 feet about the highest point, Mt. Everest, how did THOUSANDS of different stationary corals get from Indonesia/Australia/Japan/The Caribbean/Hawaii etc to the ark? They can't walk, they are tiny polyps. They can't remain in place because 5 miles depth worth of fresh water covering everything would reduce the salinity of the sea so dramatically that they would die within hours from Rapid Tissue Necrosis.

Oh and "magic" isn't allowed as an answer lol.
 
See, miniwhinny / Ozy, it seems to me "there you go again." I doubt people like their faith referred to as magic. If it were just this thread, I wouldn't really care, but over the years, time and time again, I have seen you as "miniwhinny" ridicule and poke fun at people who do have faith... Topic after topic is appropriated by you for that purpose. If you are really confident and comfortable with your own belief system, or lack there of, why do you want to try and make others feel made fun of or that they should have to justify their religious faith?
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Oz,

At least you did not bet me a fiddle of gold against my soul.

Jill and Oz,

"But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, and in humility correcting those who are in opposition, ....." author Paul

Take this to mean it would be ignorant of me to dispute so I will just escape the snare.
 
This is another Liberty issue, I believe. I have seen a few post from this perspective. While they may be opposed to gay marriage in their lives and personally, they recognize that it is a personal issue and that one cannot and should not limit another's Liberty and Freedom. For many, this can be the most difficult concept. to accept. The adage "you cannot legislate morality" is true in the sense that conversion, faith and belief are issue's of the heart. Force and especially coercive force can NEVER change a heart to freedom. Love can and does. God does not use force, does he? Rather he calls, he knocks on the door (As opposed to knocking the door down
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), he Loves.and he desires a personal relationship with you and me. It is the depth of that relationship that changes hearts. For me Liberty IS a spiritual issue.

Could we come at it from a different angle? How about we get gov. out of the marriage business period. At the fed level, there is NO enumeration giving fedgov any authority in this realm anyway. As an aside, that "authority" is We the People anyway... That means that it is a State issue. However, I'm not sure it should be a State issue even. I do not need a State "license" (permission) to be happily married. What is the purpose of this license? Who has the most to loose or gain by maintaining control over this issue? Could insurance companies change their policies regarding this issue? Could State laws be changed to reflect a more Liberty minded stance?

I think that we allow FAR to much control, over us, by gov. at ALL levels. It is not their job to control me or YOU, it is one they have taken to themselves as all gov's have done throughout time. I don't need them for a whole lot for sure. Those that embrace Liberty (and understand it) have put on the big girls/boys pants and don't need gov. for much of anything. I can tell you personally that a marriage license don't mean jack to me. Day by day for 25 very blissful years does. Hmmm.. lets see, gov. does nothing to secure me in my many individual, in nature, rights as is their contractual job, yet erodes my rights AND seeks to rule over me in every way that it can.

"Does that seem right to you?" (the bounty hunter in the series, Firefly)
 
Oz, At least you did not bet me a fiddle of gold against my soul
Well of course not...a) we don't have souls, we're just bipedal mammals living like all other mammals and b) I'm hanging on to all my gold...it's going up a TON (no pun intended) since I purchased it
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.

lol
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Question everything. Discriminating against gay people IMO is wrong. I'm sticking by that and that's what this thread is all about. I appreciate the fact that you don't want to think about my coral question...that's your right
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Sorry if the challenge to think and question is an area I'm not allowed to go to.

As a side note...went out for sushi last night and our waiter was gay. OMG how come the most handsome guys aren't available in the mass gene pool *grin* it's just not fair! But seriously, this kid (college town - they're ALL kids lol) was such a sweetheart that I couldn't imagine denying him the same happiness and security that my husband and I share. Right is right and wrong is wrong and no religion in the world could entice me to treat a fellow human being differently than I am allowed to be treated.

I admire and care about you Vickie. You are faithful to your beliefs and I appreciate getting to know you.
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AMEN to that Carriage
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You know there's a town in NJ that just launched a fine to anyone caught walking and texting at the same time. My hubby couldn't resist emailing the town mayor...this is his email....HAHAHAHA he's SO bad (he's a christian too)

....................................................................................

Sent: Monday, May 14, 2012 10:59 AM

To: '[email protected]'

Subject: texting

Are you really serious about your citizens not being able to text and walk at the same time. Your citizens need to be in treatment ; that really puts them well below the national average of being able to text and walk. I’m glad you are looking after them. I wish you all the luck. Keep up the good work. Great Law. Doing everthing for the public good what a mayor!
 
And sadly one of these facts is the fact that the god of this bible is of the opinion that homoxexuality is an abomination. That's not a gray area statement. "Abomination" is a pretty clean stance and those people like Jenny and VIckie who try to be faithful to it don't have a lot of wiggle room. That's why the gay marriage issue is overwhelmingly coming up against the religious right "no" vote.
But there apparently is a lot of wiggle room
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- as most Christians do not follow all those other Old testament commands, edicts and laws. Why should that one - which may not even have been translated accurately - be held up as Law when many others aren't?

Why are they not stoning rebellious sons to death?

Why are they not putting gays to death? That is what it says in the Bible.

Oh - and never eat any kind of shellfish. Shame on you.

Having a slave is fine.

Beating said slave to death is not... unless the slave manages to live 2 days after the beating in which case the owner who killed the slave is excused. Huh?

If anyone in your family suggests another religion in any way - sorry, you must kill them.

If a **** is committed in the town both the rapist and the victim must be stoned to death. The victim because she did not call for help loudly enough.

If the **** is committed in the country, only the rapist must be stoned.

It goes on and on. I think that clinging to selective Old Testament "laws" while ignoring the majority of them is a poor defense for discriminating against the gay population as many do based on what the Bible says.

The God of the Old Testament is vengeful and bloodthirsty and orders the annihilation and murder of entire tribes/towns. Do we need to follow in that stead? No - of course not.

Things are not black and white but many shades of grey.

See, miniwhinny / Ozy, it seems to me "there you go again." I doubt people like their faith referred to as magic. If it were just this thread, I wouldn't really care, but over the years, time and time again, I have seen you as "miniwhinny" ridicule and poke fun at people who do have faith... Topic after topic is appropriated by you for that purpose. If you are really confident and comfortable with your own belief system, or lack there of, why do you want to try and make others feel made fun of or that they should have to justify their religious faith?
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Jill, I do have to comment quietly on your continued miniwhinny "campaign" - for want of a better word.
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You really seem to be upset that she changed her screen name - I am not sure what the big deal is. People have changed their names on forums many times - and it was no big secret. Yet you keep referring to it and seem to feel it is indicative of... something. You continue to single her out and "know" she has an agenda of some kind. I have not seen her appropriating topics on any subject in any way - the discussions ebb and flow and take detours and circles all the time - no matter who is involved.

You have had no issues with sneering at/making fun of others in the past - so I confess that I find your "there you go again" comments to be puzzling. You seem to take offense at almost everything she says - so may I suggest that you simply scroll by her posts? Or maybe Mary Lou could get an Ignore button for the forum...
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Jenny what you are missing is its not a choice. Every gay person will tell you how much they tried to change it, but it doesnt work.

We are made in his image, if it was so wrong then why would he make us this way?

I beleive in God, read the bible and go to church, so its not that I am anti anything.
Ashley, I read your words and I recall how I used to say almost the same thing to myself. If I change your words gay person to adulteress images of me sitting in the pew literally squirming like a ____ in church fill my memory. And the whole time the choir was singing Blessed Redeemer my mind is singing If Lovin You is Wrong I Don't Want to Be Right. The answer did not come to me overnight. It took a series of pitfalls later to the point I was so low the only direction I could look was up and ask God how am I ever going to survive the disappointments and pain I am going through? Well, I did survive and I now understand His plan. I hope this helps you to see "why would he make us this way?"

God could forcibly prevent people from sinning, but that would not enable us to achieve the potential that He desires for us to achieve. His will is that we learn right from wrong and that we choose to do right without pressure from Him (Deuteronomy 30:19) We must have free will to make those choices; otherwise, we will not develop godly character.

By analogy, people do not break the law when the police are watching. Does that prove that they are good citizens? No, for they are under pressure to comply with the law. We demonstrate good character by obeying the laws of the land when no authority is standing over us. It's similar spiritually. God makes His laws known to us, but leaves it up to us to act on that knowledge.

Working with us in this way requires infinite patience on God's part. Like a wise parent, He realizes that we need the freedom to make mistakes. By analogy, wise parents allow children in their teenage years to make and learn from mistakes, realizing that it is the only way they will learn and develop good character. Of course, parents still give their children guidance, comfort and help; but parents don't control every aspect of their children's lives. If parents are unwise and too controlling, their children never develop the maturity they need to manage their own lives.

Likewise, God the Father does not control our every action. He allows us the freedom to obey—or to sin. God also allowed Satan to be active in this present world, playing upon the weaknesses of human nature and tempting people to make wrong choices (Ephesians 6:11-12; 1 Peter 5:8).

All of these factors serve to strengthen us spiritually, for we grow in strength by resisting the forces of evil.

Has God left us to suffer the consequences of sin without any hope? No, He hasn't. He provided us with a way to obtain forgiveness for sin, through repentance and accepting the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38). His plan enables us to develop genuine character at the same time as it provides us with a way to escape the death penalty that sin brings on (Romans 6:23)

We can be good hearted, be honest, be a good neighbor, good friend, charitable, hard workers, be good in all senses of doing nobody any harm and helping those in need. But true believers know that in addition to being a good person they want to be obedient.
 
First I want to thank Tagalong for her post, for getting me to put my Big Girl Panties On, lol, from her latest post. I realize it certainly is not the subject that made me basically want to bow-out of the forum again, nor the fact that others have a different point of view. I just finished reading Vickie gee's very well written post and I am absolutely fine and applaud her post even though I may not totally agree with it in the context of the subject. My problem has been with some snide and belittling remarks that come repeatedly from an individual on various subjects if you are not in complete agreement with this person. I do believe that this person may not always see the way this indivual comes across but for me personally it's always a "battle" and I am tired od battles, I do however enjoy respectul debates. Well, after reading Tag's post I thought Danielle just deal with it ;-) and the ignore/block feature is there for a reason... Which is now in place so I can participate without being made to feel like a piece of crap, sorry for the analogy. If at any time I make any of you feel like you don't have a right to your opinion please tell me. My intent is certainly not to do so.
 
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First I want to thank Tagalong for her post, for getting me to put my Big Girl Panties On, lol, from her latest post. I realize it certainly is not the subject that made me basically want to bow-out of the forum again nor the fact that others have a different point of view. I just finished reading Vickie gee's very well written post and I am absolutely fine and applaud her post even though I may not totally agree with it i

n the context of the subject. My problem has been with some snide and belittling remarks that come not only from an individual on her this subject but all other subjects if you are not in complete agreement with this person. I do believe that this person may not always see the way this indivual comes across but for me personally it's always a "battle" and I am tired od battles, I do however enjoy respectul debates. Well, after reading Tag's post I thought Danielle just deal with it ;-) and the ignore/block feature is there for a reason... Which is now in place so I can participate without being made to feel like a piece of crap, sorry for the analogy. If at any time I make any of you feel like you don't have a right to your opinion please tell me. My intent is certainly not to do so.
Danielle,

Thanks for your words concerning me. I was just about to depart from the ship anyhow. Did not want to get involved in the preachin aspect literally just expressed my opinion based on my beliefs and then felt compelled to answer some questions. I don't want to keep anyone from being happy. I vote for whatever I vote for because it is one of the freedoms I exercise. Ok, I depart and (hopefully) leave the rest of the crew in peace.
 
I hope you never depart or are made to feel you have to depart. I enjoy very much being able to discuss, even if we may not always agree, lol, what our beliefs are on a subject or our point of view. Hugs Vickie
 
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Did not want to get involved in the preachin aspect literally just expressed my opinion based on my beliefs and then felt compelled to answer some questions. I don't want to keep anyone from being happy. I vote for whatever I vote for because it is one of the freedoms I exercise
Never be afraid to state your opinion and beliefs - they are always welcome here. At the same time, you must understand that everyone may not agree with them - but that is what makes a discussion interesting. How dull it would be if every post simply agreed iwth the previous ones!
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The "preaching" as you said
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may not be my thing and I was driven away from organized religion (mainly by the hypocrisy I saw all around me) long ago - but I always read everything everyone says.

Danielle - I did not realize there was an ignore/block feature for the forum - I thought it only applied to PMs! Not that I am going t try it out...
 
There is a feature if you click on your name that is showing on the upper part of your screen showing that you are logged in, the feature to " ignore/block" individuals posts in the forums and in private messages. That feature I believe has been around since I became a member back in 1999.
 
Seems we have gone from politics to religion, which we all know if you want to keep friends don't debate either one. Guess I'll chime back in with my questions and opinions, please don't laugh at me. I do consider myself a Christian, believe me as an older person, I've been to just about every church there is, Catholic, Babtist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Black, free Gosple, Seventh Day ADventist, Pentocostal, pleas excuse all the spelling mistakes have dial up and spell check won't load. Well, just about everything excep Jewish, Buddist, Morman, you get the picture. I've seen people throw themselves onto the floor, speak in tongues, scream, etc. etc. whatever, excuse the phrase. Went to church with someone once that was Babtist, his sister said to me what are you babtisted as, I answered Catholic, she said you worship idols. I said No we may pray in front of an image of a saint, Christ or Virgin, but we dont' worship the statue it is just an image, Sort of like when you kiss and hold the picture of your boyfriend, you don't love the image just the guy. she said No my pastor said all of you Catholics worship idols, so you are pagans. Well I never went to church with her again. She was strong in her belief of what was told to her by her pastor! There was no way I could convince her otherwise. ONe of my daughters married a babtist whos family is really into church, she started going to bible on Wed. and was advised to read the old Testament. I told her it would be more scary then a Steven King novel, she started reading and was scared to death over a vengeful God. Told her so.

IN my opinion I'm a Christian, that means to me, In Christ! Christ was born after the old testament, and his stories are told in the New testament. so my question is this, what testament does it say that being gay is a sin, the new or the old? If it is in the old then it is irrelevent. To Me. Christ was good, great and loved all, and asked us to love our neighbor as ourself, so maybe I need an education on religion.
 
Question everything. Discriminating against gay people IMO is wrong. I'm sticking by that and that's what this thread is all about. I appreciate the fact that you don't want to think about my coral question...that's your right
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Sorry if the challenge to think and question is an area I'm not allowed to go to.
Always Question! any person or group of people that does not want you to question, wants you to stay ignorant, and that person or group must me eliminated from your life.

Now back to the Gay marriage thing, of course in the bible it says gay marriage is wrong, but show me where it says that in the constitution!
 
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