Humane issue: Driving Horses roaring/wheezing

[valshingle]

If you have been to worlds or regionals and haven't seen or heard about it then I would love to live in that bubble. I was in TX when I saw a horse go down in the shafts when a trainer turned the whip and hit the horse in the face with the handle. The drug debate has been going on for years.

As I am in TX, I'm pretty sure I'm not living in a bubble in regards to showing. There are trainers and exhibitors out there - halter and driving alike - that will whip horses when they feel the horse has been bad. Stick around the halter ring and you will see exhibitors 'waking up' the halter horses just around the corner. I don't agree with it, but whipping horses is not exclusive to the driving ring. I do agree that such behavior should be reported.

In my opinion, we are discussing three different issues; horses that have a mechanical roar, excessive whipping and abuse, and the use of medications in the show ring. In my opinion these are three different things. Please do not lump the three together.

I personally have NEVER seen a child give a horse ventipulmin (what some are calling peppy juice). I honestly don't recall ever seeing a youth give a horse any drugs. So perhaps that is a bubble that I am living in. I am more concerned with unregulated drugs than those you get with a vet prescription. I believe a current trend is giving the horse 5 Hour Energy drinks and the like. These can be loaded with caffeine.

So, which is worse? Showing a horse that has been examined by a vet, determined to be sound and fit to show, perhaps given (in some cases) vet prescribed medication, which is reported to the show management at the World show; to aid the horse (and being a human asthmatic I can tell you that albuterol may give me maybe 5 mins of increased heart rate) OR using excessive force, uncontrolled substances, and harsh training methods. I believe that Olympic athletes are allowed to use albuterol inhalers. Here is a quote from a study of clenbuterol (Ventipulmin) on horses :

"Because it is a bronchodilator and a repartitioning

agent, there has been great concern about clenbuterol’s

ability to enhance performance. The

amount of bronchodilation that occurs in normal

horses is very small. In healthy human athletes, a

measurable dilation of the airways induced by a

b2-agonist is not associated with an improvement

in oxygen consumption.17,18 Likewise, intravenous

administration of clenbuterol to thoroughbred

horses 30 min before exercising on a treadmill does

not improve oxygen consumption or cardiovascular

function.19 Because the plasma concentration

would be lower, it is even less likely that oral administration

would have any effect on oxygen consumption.

This is indeed the case. Kallings et al.3

found no effect of 10-day oral treatment with clenbuterol

on lactate accumulation of oxygen tension in

Standardbred horses exercising on a treadmill.

As stated above, there are no data on the repartitioning

effect of clenbuterol in horses. Even if some

repartitioning occurred at the therapeutic dose,

there is no evidence that the increased muscle mass

is associated with increased ability to exercise.

Indeed, in mice treated with clenbuterol, measures

of performance were reduced even though muscle

mass was increased by clenbuterol."

Whole artcle

Certainly, the poster has the right to make whatever rule change proposals they want. I guess I just don't like being lumped in the same group as those who abuse and drug (illegally) their horses. I know there are vets out there that will prescribe almost anything, but that is not the kind I use.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[iowa]

Why not propse a rule to elimate check reins? That would help with the problem. American Driving Society does not allow checks and horses look and drive very nicely.

 

[dreaminmini]

I don't think anyone has an issue with drugs that are medically prescribed to a horse for a certain condition. But the "Peppy juices" are a concern because it can push a horse to work beyond it's limits.

As for the driving, I think there is huge room for improvement. A lot of the horses do not have enough time in the shafts before being asked to perform in the ring. At 2 or 3 they are hitched and checked up and out in the show ring the minute they turn 3 (Don;t misunderstand, there are many horses quite ready to drive at three and drive very well). I hear people say "look how well he did and he's only been hitched twice before this show"

Are you kidding me??? so you have a very green horse, checked up tight when he hasn't had time to build strength to work in harness. The owners are thrilled with their ribbon so what are they going to change??? Those will also be the horses that will roar in the future. But no one will have any idea how they got that way.

It will be a tricky wording to try and bring about a ruling for this. But we could police ourselves. The judges could not place these horses, we could refuse to bend to the "everyone else is doing it" scenario, people that cheat: don't use their services, don't use that trainer and don't use that breeder no matter how good the horse may be or how successful the trainer is. Take a bit of pride in ourselves and learn to show our own horses or at least take a more active and attentive view of their training and care. Step up when we witness cheating or abuse instead of ignoring it. It can't be stopped if no one steps up.

 

[dreaminmini]

Why not propse a rule to elimate check reins? That would help with the problem. American Driving Society does not allow checks and horses look and drive very nicely.

I would support that rule change. Half the drivers have them so loose they are ineffective anyway and the other half have them too tight. Hmmm, what does that say???

 

[ClickMini]

There was absolutely nothing in my original post about medication or excessive whip use. These are already issues that can be brought up to the steward. If I ever knew of or saw a child administering an injectable drug into their horse I would report it in a hot minute.

This is very specifically about the "top levels" of driving and the perception of distressed breathing in these horses. It is a postural issue. It is a huge signal of tension. By making it clear that this is not a desirable situation perhaps trainers will change the way they train these horses to move. And it seems to me we all need to change what we think is "pretty."

 

[valshingle]

I would love to see the elimination of check reins and even martingales in the driving horses. I think that would be a huge improvement.

I agree that many horses are being trained at the shows; this happens in the big horse world, too. So many people are into quick results, it's a shame. I've noticed that those horses that are started quickly often burn out or lose the brilliance they had early on.

Perhaps instead of proposing a rule change about breathing noises, which can be very subjective for the judge; another way of approaching the situation would be to eliminate the check rein and to keep the running martingale from pulling the rein down and breaking the straight line from bit to elbow.

 

[ClickMini]

Oh Val, you reble you!

I have a mare that was Reserve Champion All-Star in Ladie's Single Pleasure, 3rd in Ammy SP, and 4th in Mares & Open SP in her first year out as a 3yo. I dropped her to country before we went to Nationals because I was bothered by what I was seeing. She had this breathing issue. She was tense. She went on to a Reserve National Championship in Mares CP plus multiple top tens. Once we REMOVED THE OVERCHECK WITH CHECK STRING AND PUT HER IN SIDECHECKS...the problem was gone. I personally will never again use an overcheck with a check bit or string. If I did use an overcheck, it can be attached to the bit itself. However, I have pretty much gone to sidechecks and really don't like using an overcheck at all.

This mare definitely does NOT need a check of any sort and honestly, I believe none do. I do not believe it is a safety issue, in fact I think it can actually be a hazard as I have seen more than one horse hook their check under a shaft while standing. It ain't pretty. This same mare is now still competing at breed shows AS WELL as in CDE, preliminary level. She demonstrated the most incredible, powerful, beautiful trot lengthening when we were taking a dressage lesson a couple of weeks ago...when we hit that diagonal and I asked, it was THERE, she lifted up like a hovercraft and simply flew with lightness and finesse. No check, no martingale. Just strength and training. That is what I am talking about.

 

[valshingle]

I find it very interesting on what equipment is allowed and what is not. No leverage bits of any kind. But we can adjust the running martingale to any length.

I agree that the dressage horses are more 'through'. I would give a lot to be able to use a small leverage bit at times. The upper level dressage people get to use double bridles in competition, we're stuck with snaffles and maybe an overcheck bit (although none of mine are using them right now).

I don't know if dropped nosebands aren't allowed or if no one makes them. So I see some horses with their cavessons way too low to keep their mouths shut. And that can really pinch their nostrils and restrict airflow. At least no one has thought of a crank noseband......yet.

And yes, I did some training in dressage. My trainer was French..............oooo la la!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I find it very interesting on what equipment is allowed and what is not. No leverage bits of any kind. But we can adjust the running martingale to any length.

I try to tell myself the "no leverage bits" thing is because the people who wrote the rules knew leverage bits could be strongly abused when used in conjunction with martingales and tight checks, but frankly I doubt they were that smart!

Sorry, I'm being unkind again but honestly....

Some of those rules are just so ignorant of proper driving practices.

I agree that the dressage horses are more 'through'. I would give a lot to be able to use a small leverage bit at times. The upper level dressage people get to use double bridles in competition, we're stuck with snaffles and maybe an overcheck bit (although none of mine are using them right now).

You wouldn't be able to get the same finesse with driving reins that you can with a double bridle, unfortunately. The sheer weight and length of the lines would prevent it and put too much pressure on their mouths. A good dressage rider can get a nice piaffe with a completely loose curb rein! The most I'd want to use is the rough-cheek setting on a Liverpool to encourage a resistant horse to flex at the poll.

I don't know if dropped nosebands aren't allowed or if no one makes them.

People make flash nosebands at least- I've seen them on combined driving horses of all sizes. I think one reason drivers might not use a dropped noseband is because traditionally the caveson holds the cheekpieces against the face so the blinkers cannot gape and a dropped noseband wouldn't fulfill that function.

I still find it funny that minis aren't allowed to use leverage bits and full-sized horses rarely use snaffles because they are considered unsafe for a driving horse.

And yet we claim checks are a safety device when the entire big horse world repudiates them for anything but fine harness classes.

Talk about culture clash!

Leia

 

[Katiean]

I do not agree with constantly making a rule for this and a rule for that. I have worked with big horses that as soon as you asked for a trot, Even an easy trot, loose check and all. By the same token I had a horse that would poop infront of the same house when I road her. Was there something wrong with her? Was she trained to poop infront of that house (the owners of the house thought she was)? Some horses just do things that people think the owner or trainer is making the horse do.

 

[Minimor]

I still find it funny that minis aren't allowed to use leverage bits and full-sized horses rarely use snaffles because they are considered unsafe for a driving horse. And yet we claim checks are a safety device when the entire big horse world repudiates them for anything but fine harness classes. Talk about culture clash!

Actually that isn't quite correct. Under Equine Canada rules Morgans and Arabians do still require checks in pleasure driving and country pleasure.

Arabian/part Arabian Country Pleasure and Pleasure driving requires that horses be shown in overcheck (with separate overcheck bit) or sidecheck (separate sidecheck bit optional) and snaffle bit (straight or jointed).

For Morgan Pleasure driving a driving snaffle with half cheek and overcheck or sidecheck is considered proper in all harness classes. One or two bits is acceptable. A running martingal should be used. Roadster must have overcheck, martingale and square blinkers.

I'm not sure if checks are mandatory in Morgan Classic Pleasure Driving but they certainly are not forbidden because people do use them in this division.

What the other big horse breeds have for rules I cannot say. Hackney horses and ponies still use checks but in some cases (Traditional Pleasure Driving for instance) "checks are optional"--other classes they are still required.

 

[RhineStone]

Why not propse a rule to elimate check reins? That would help with the problem. American Driving Society does not allow checks and horses look and drive very nicely.

Just a clarification, ADS does not allow OVERchecks in most turnouts (there are a couple vehicles that historically used an overcheck), but ADS does allow sidechecks in pleasure driving shows and only in Training level of CDEs. However, if the horse was checked up that much that it "roared" or made any sort of noise in an ADS show, I think most judges would not place it very well.

A lot of ADS judges use the German Training Scale as the basis for driving training, and the first floor of the scale is Rhythm and Relaxation. If the horse is that fired up that it is breathing that hard, it is not relaxed. But being relaxed does not mean plodding and boring. You can still get an awesome, upright performance out of a "relaxed" horse. (Just check out any video of driving horses from WEG.) The problem is that it takes YEARS of quality work with a horse that is capable and talented to get to that point, and a lot of breed show drivers, trainers, and owners are not willing to put in that kind of time. So they take the short cut with the check (not just the mini breed).

Myrna

 

[RhineStone]

Hey Amy, maybe you should add a poll as to whether or not people would support the elimination of checks or the optional use of them.

 

[HGFarm]

Sometimes this condition is NOT caused by equipment or being checked up too tight. Miniature horses are known to have a condition of a collapsing trachea, which CAN be hereditary! It gets worse with age and I know someone who had one that had to be put down at 9 years old. I know several other horses from the same bloodline that have the problem that all go back to the same horse, who also had the problem. The owners did not realize what the issue was, but quit breeding that line the moment they found out, however there are many offspring, grandget, etc... on the ground now already. Collapsing trachea can cause oxygen deprivation... sometimes it shows up with excercise, but as it worsens, some horses have trouble breathing just standing there.

Perhaps some of these LOUD horses in the ring should be scoped by a vet for this problem? (I have heard horses driving from clear at the other end of the arena, and in my opinion, 'that ain't right') I dont like watching a driving class and hearing a horse that sounds like a freight train from clear across the arena, and to me, it is indicating a problem of some sort and I dont think a horse doing this should be awarded anything. Just my opinion.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

It is totally beyond my understanding how any horse making any discernible and consistent noise could be allowed to remain in the ring, let alone placed.

I am not even going to go into the whys and wherefores of why it is making the noise or whether it is "mechanical" or whatever.

If a horse is making a consistent noise there is something basically, intrinsically, wrong, and it should be excused.

I have NO idea about "peppy juice" but I do know it is not ventipulmin. As adequately indicated by the article, ventipulmin lasts only a certain length of time.

That being said, no horse on any sort of drugs, prescription or otherwise, should be competing.

I do not need to go into, again, my feelings on the misuse of checkreins in the show ring- if you need to hike your horses head up into the air in order to get it to perform in a particular class it is NOT suited for that class, pure and simple.

Martingales ?

No, no mechanical form of altering a horses head carriage has a place in the show ring.

 

[disneyhorse]

Just popping back in to address my feelings about something somewhat off topic...

The majority of breed ring driving is NOT the same thing as driving in other disciplines. The breed ring is to showcase a "snapshot" of the horses' abilities... whether it's conformation or athletic ability. Unlike dressage, where a horse performs all by itself and has the judges' 100% attention... the breed ring is where the horse tries to get the judges' attention as being the "prettiest" in halter or the "most athletic" in the driving ring.

In driving, all the horse is asked to do is to walk, trot, show some minor gait transitions and back up a couple of steps. The level of training can be minimal. This is why a green three-year-old can easily place above a seasoned 15-year-old in Park Harness or Roadster. The horse just needs to have rudimentary skills (it does not need to know how to sidepass or back in a very straight line) and be able to set its head and have some athletic ability. Obviously manners and temperament are going to make this easier.

So, there is always pressure to show the horse to its highest ability, which means some people resort to as many "tricks" as possible to get those feet to lift higher and for them to lift their necks and tuck in their chins as extreme as possible. In some cases, this does cause roaring but usually the horse's way of going appears strained as well.

As to the bits... there isn't a need for more finesse. The horse just needs to walk and trot, there isn't really much turning that needs to be done or any fancy footwork. Everything is more or less a straight line.

The breed ring is just driving in circles, and the goal is not to show off the MIND of the horse, it's just purely to show it's athletic potential under harness. Those who don't like that, can find plenty of other more fulfilling driving shows to go to. Or, look for the breed shows that offer more challenging classes like driven obstacle. You probably won't find the super-highly-checked-up-roarers in that class. Right?

That's my take on it.

Andrea

 

[RhineStone]

In driving, all the horse is asked to do is to walk, trot, show some minor gait transitions and back up a couple of steps. The level of training can be minimal. The horse just needs to have rudimentary skills (it does not need to know how to sidepass or back in a very straight line) and be able to set its head and have some athletic ability. Obviously manners and temperament are going to make this easier.

And THAT would be why we enjoy the ADS ring so much!

When we have 20 min. classes, at least we are given a good look and a fair shake. I remember my first ADS show and was BLOWN AWAY that each class took so long compared to the other shows we went to. I thought it would never end! Now I watch the breed classes and think about all that work that was put in to get there and to only be in the ring for 5 min.

It would also be scary to be in the ring with minimally trained driving horses!

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I still find it funny that minis aren't allowed to use leverage bits and full-sized horses rarely use snaffles because they are considered unsafe for a driving horse. And yet we claim checks are a safety device when the entire big horse world repudiates them for anything but fine harness classes. Talk about culture clash!

Actually that isn't quite correct. Under Equine Canada rules Morgans and Arabians do still require checks in pleasure driving and country pleasure.

Arabian/part Arabian Country Pleasure and Pleasure driving requires that horses be shown in overcheck (with separate overcheck bit) or sidecheck (separate sidecheck bit optional) and snaffle bit (straight or jointed).

For Morgan Pleasure driving a driving snaffle with half cheek and overcheck or sidecheck is considered proper in all harness classes. One or two bits is acceptable. A running martingal should be used. Roadster must have overcheck, martingale and square blinkers.

To me, those are all fine harness classes which I already stated still use checks. You are absolutely correct however that I was over-generalizing as there is are many breeds which offer driving classes within their shows and it's not fair of me to marginalize those in favor of ADS-style driving as being "the whole world." My apologies.

In driving, all the horse is asked to do is to walk, trot, show some minor gait transitions and back up a couple of steps. The level of training can be minimal. This is why a green three-year-old can easily place above a seasoned 15-year-old in Park Harness or Roadster. The horse just needs to have rudimentary skills (it does not need to know how to sidepass or back in a very straight line) and be able to set its head and have some athletic ability. Obviously manners and temperament are going to make this easier.
As to the bits... there isn't a need for more finesse. The horse just needs to walk and trot, there isn't really much turning that needs to be done or any fancy footwork. Everything is more or less a straight line.

The breed ring is just driving in circles, and the goal is not to show off the MIND of the horse, it's just purely to show it's athletic potential under harness.

And that, to me, is the most assinine thing about it. They are PERFORMANCE CLASSES. The rules state they are judged on manners, headset, way of going and turnout. How, then, does their training for manners, headset, and proper way of going not count??

If I wanted my horse to be judged purely on its looks and native ability I would have put it in a halter class.

Those who don't like that, can find plenty of other more fulfilling driving shows to go to.

No, sadly, we can't. Many areas have no other arena driving competitions available unless your horse happens to be a pinto and I find it deeply sad that rather than fostering proper horsemanship skills in our competitors they should be told to "go away" if they don't feel like being routinely beaten in a performance class by a horse who can barely back the cart or is roaring.

With a big horse there are many other discipline-specific shows to go to. Not so for the minis, unfortunately. That's why I will never stop fighting to make our shows more inclusive and enjoyable for all.

My personal feeling is that in this economy it is terribly irresponsible not to foster the long-term performance of the horses that are already out there. The market is glutted. Prices are down. When are we going to start encouraging sustainable practices??

Leia

 

[Minimor]

Oh, I see Leia--when you said 'fine harness' I was thinking specifically of the fine harness division that certain breeds offer. To me Arabian and Morgan pleasure driving or country pleasure driving is exactly the same as Miniature pleasure driving/country pleasure. I know awhile back someone else on here had said that overchecks weren't allowed for Morgans, but in actual fact they still are allowed for that breed & are still frequently used. Many drivers have not switched to sidechecks and they sure haven't dispensed with the checks completely.

I disagree with the practice of taking green (as in just driven a few times) horses into the ring. I especially disagree with this practice at Nationals where the classes are so large. I think Nationals entries should have to qualify in driving classes in order to be allowed to enter the driving classes at Nationals. People have gotten away with it so far, but that doesn't mean they will continue to do so and it will take just one wreck to make people sorry that such inexperienced horses are being put into driving classes.

It's easy to say if you don't like it don't show in it, but quite frankly even as a spectator I don't care to watch any horse wheezing/roaring its way around the ring!

Fact is, the one horse that I've seen that I honestly thought was going to fall over from lack of air was a horse in an obstacle driving class. Yes, that was a Morgan but it could happen with a Mini or any other breed too--problem is, there are those drivers who don't adjust their check from one class to another--so however they have the check for their pleasure driving class is how they'll have their check for the obstacle driving class. Add to that the fact that some drivers are very heavy handed and may simply just haul in too much on the reins, making the horse tuck his nose in, which in turn can cause breathing restriction on some horses--and if the driver is being heavy handed in steering the horse through the obstacles, it ends up being much the same as having a horse checked up too tight.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Oh, I see Leia--when you said 'fine harness' I was thinking specifically of the fine harness division that certain breeds offer. To me Arabian and Morgan pleasure driving or country pleasure driving is exactly the same as Miniature pleasure driving/country pleasure.

Exactly.

No breeching, narrow breastcollars, checks, show carts...Fine harness!

I know there's a specific Fine Harness division at many shows where they use viceroys and such but I meant the more general distinction between fine harness, carriage harness or draft harness horses. The Arabian sport horse shows for instance offer a carriage driving division which I believe follows ADS-style rules and horses show with breeching and heavier carts. In the carriage driving world, which I was mistakenly treating as being the whole of full-sized horse driving, checks are at best optional.

Leia