Internal scanning of pregnant mares

Miniature Horse Talk Forums

Help Support Miniature Horse Talk Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Where do you get the proper mini equipment? Maybe if I go to the vet with info and pictures she will try. She keeps telling me that she doesn't have anything small enough. Can someone with the equipment measure it and take a picture so that I can show her?

The manufacturer of the ultrasound will sell the extension. If they don't have a specific one for their probe then they will have a generic one you can purchase. This is the information on the one I use currently. Its not really my favorite, no problem with the extension, rather its a little cumbersome with my new probe. Llama, alpaca, and mini extensions are all the same thing, no need to get mini specific. I have had my farm hand make them out of PVC pipe successfully.

Total Machine Vet Services

4450 Broadway

Grove City, OH 43123

614-871-8440

www.tmvs.com

[email protected]

Dr Taylor
 
Well i can certainly understand not trusting a Vet, some you wonder how they got through Vet school. You would not believe what i have heard coming out of some of them, shocking really. Sometimes i have to wonder "were you out of class sick that day they discussed sonography ?" "Did you have a fight with your spouse, and could not concentrate the day they taught equine reproduction? Did you actually get to see a speculum, and floats for a horses mouth? Did you listen when they discussed how a horse masticates?

One Vet told a friend of mine in Raleigh recently, take the horse to the vet school, My friends response to her Vet was " I thought you went to the Vet school, if you did not learn how to get a baby out, how can anyone there, less educated, and much less experienced know anything more?"

One Friend in Georgia, had a Vet come out for a dystocia, the Vet said she could not re position it, and told them she must "humanely" destroy the horse. They ask the Vet if she could use a Fetotone to cut the babys head off as it was turned and laying over its back, and that Vet said she did not feel comfortable with using a fetatone as it may further injure the mare. (i was listening in on the phone when that Veterinarian said those very words.)

Further injure the mare. Seriously?

Hmmm..... she did not feel comfortable with using a fetatone to at least "try" to make some sort of effort to salvage that animals life, but she did feel comfortable with destroying the animals life ( humanely of course) . Thats was very interesting to me.

Now granted i was not there, and i did not see the animal , but if i were that animal, i would want someone to attempt to save my life, go above and beyond what they were "comfortable" doing, to do any and all last ditch attempts, no matter how far fetched it may seem, to save my life. Death only when absolutely everything has been tried and has failed.

Anyone can kill an animal, but when i call a Vet, i expect him/her to do/try something!

I guess as with any Dr. , They are not all created equal. You have to find one that is smart, that continues to educate themselves, and will wrap all that up in a huge dose of common sense. I want a Vet who will not practice CYA medicine, but will make an honest effort! Not knowing the answer is not a bad thing, however Not trying to find the answer is abominable!

My Veterinarian is Dr. Jeff Schulze @ Foothills mobile he knows everything there is to know about miniature horses (he is actually a cattle Vet).

Dr. Blackwelder statesville equine and Bovine clinic. aka Dr. B, he is the repo man, he is a big man about 6'2' i think , but can ultrasound the tiniest of mares with ease,( no extension, even with his large hands) and can make non breeding mares into viable broodmares.

Dr. John Martin, Maiden Large Animal Clinic, there is not a dystocia that has presented itself that he cannot get out, one way or another.

There are several more Vets in our area, they can draw a coggins, and sign their name to it, i guess that is something.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Please do not use an extension !!!! you can rupture that mares rectum!!!!! PVC pipe??????

Use your hand you can feel when the mare is staining against you, and can adjust when and how far you can go in! You CANNOT feel that with an extension. The probe is tiny!!!! A well lubed, gloved hand is a much safer extension!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
As a pre-vet student that has worked with many,many vets, I really feel the need to defend them right now. Vet school IS harder to get into than medical school and most pre-vet students go with a microbiology major. It is NOT easy, not by any means. Then they go to vet school, learn all they can, but most vets I work with agree that much of their knowledge comes from being on the job. These vets are expected to know EVERYTHING about every species from their clients and that is just not possible. Every single vet I know has put in an incredible amount of work to get where they are, but they are not given enough credit. they can't be good at everything, just like the rest of us.None of my vets have been very knowledgeable regarding equine, but they have always been open about what they are and are not comfortable with and they will try/learn what they can to help. I have one vet who refuses to ultrasound my mares and that is just fine. She has saved more than 1 of my mares from a nasty dystocia. I have another vet who will do ultrasounds, but he is terrible at correcting dystocias and is open about it. He usually has me work on the mare while he walks me through it.

Vets make mistakes just like everyone else and they can't know everything about everything. Most will tell you openly when they are uncomfortable with something -listen, don't criticize! They are probably excellent in many other areas.
 
Please do not use an extension !!!! you can rupture that mares rectum!!!!! PVC pipe??????

In the hands of a skilled vet, the chances of a rupture are very slim. No more than drawing blood on a hand palpation. I will just repeat that we have NEVER had any issues with an internal ultrasound - including using the probes that Dr. Taylor suggested. You cannot use your hand on all minis - no matter how well lubed and gloved it is, it is far wider, lumpier and thicker than a small, lubed probe in professional, careful hands.

Now granted i was not there, and i did not see the animal ,
...and therefore you were not able to evaluate the situation or the condition of the mare at the time, and whether or not the use of the fetotone would have caused her greater pain and injury/distress. It is hard to evaluate a situation fairly when you were not there - and when the participants were understandably under stress and anxious about their mare.

One Vet told a friend of mine in Raleigh recently, take the horse to the vet school, My friends response to her Vet was " I thought you went to the Vet school, if you did not learn how to get a baby out, how can anyone there, less educated, and much less experienced know anything more?"
Here, if we had a bad dystocia that was hard or impossible to fix on a ranch call (i.e. may need a fetotomy or a cesarean), you bet we would load that mare in the trailer (as per our vet's suggestion and referral) and take her to the local equine hospital and not wait around. Not everything can be accomplished in the barn. There is nothing CYA about suggesting that a horse needs more diverse, specialized or intense care that can be provided in the field. Your friend does realize there are VETS at the vet school teaching the students? Actual vets and specialists ( and interns and residents) that handle cases and supervise everything closely if they do not do it themselves? I see nothing wrong with the suggestion to take a horse to a vet school if you have one nearby - they usually have state of the art facilities and experienced experts in every veterinary field right at hand. Something I would think we all would want for our horses if they were in trouble.

The College of Veterinary Medicine at NCSU in Raleigh is nothing to sneer at and if I lived nearby I would not hesitate to have my vet refer me to them.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You are correct in the fact that The University s do have state of the art facilitys, We took a quarter horse that had a case of colic there. We were told it would be 2500.00 to walk in the door, which we had a credit card for. The horse was there for 3 days. We were charged 49.00 per bag of "special" fluid that was given IV, which we now know is code for lactate Ringer, which i can order for .79 per bag. Our horse only saw the students, never the professor. We were charged for a belly tap (which i felt was apprpriate, and did not argue about.) The Banamine we were charged 30.00 something a dose( had i known that i would have brought my own) We elected to not have surgery done because of the cost, 8-10 thousand dollars, On the third day it was apparent that the animal was not going to make it, a student called us to tell us, the student said he did not know what was going on with the animal, but for an additional 1350.00 we could have a necropsy to tell us what killed it. Needless to say, we did not opt for the necropsy. Never did a teacher or professor call us, or talk to us about anything. We paid our bill in full, and got some very expensive education.

Tagalong, i do not know how to do quotes so i will copy and paste.

.

..and therefore you were not able to evaluate the situation or the condition of the mare at the time, and whether or not the use of the fetotone would have caused her greater pain and injury/distress.easy to kill an animal

You are right as i stated i was not there, but again, it is easy to kill an animal, does not take a vet to do it. Of course fetotones can cause injury and distress, but heck, it sure beats the alternative!!!!!! Bet you would have wanted some one to give it a shot if you were the one laying there!

I would never be angry with a Vet that tried to save my animal, EVER, no matter if the Vet perforated a uterus, or killed the horse in the process of trying to save it. If the Vet thought anything they could try would give the slightest hope of life, please try it, no matter how far fetched, or how hopeless the situation seemed. I never want one of my animals (or myself for that matter) to go down without a fight!

Again, i must add that:

You have to find one (Vet) that is smart, that continues to educate themselves, and will wrap all that up in a huge dose of common sense. I want a Vet who will not practice CYA medicine, but will make an honest effort! Not knowing the answer is not a bad thing, however Not trying to find the answer is abominable!

I am glad you have had no problems with extensions, but i am still nervous about putting one in my mare, my ultrasound from EI medical came with one, so i have tried it, i can not feel as well that way, and cannot tell when the mare is straining against me, as of right now, my hand will be my extension, i can gage much better when to proceed and when to back off, when i can feel what is going on.
 
Tagalong thank you for taking time to post, you brought up some valid points, many of which i am putting thought into, as i want to learn, and grow as well.

Do you have to take your mares in for fetotomys? They are done at the farm here, even when they are cut at the head and pelvis, we took one out in quarters one time, but luckily the mare was fine afterwards, and had a cute little filly this year!

On a dystocia where the baby has died, My Vet usually just goes in and takes the head off, its much easier and less traumatic for the mare that way, i usually work the pulleys, and his(the Vet) hand is the one in the mare for protection, and to make sure the wire is not against the mares uterus.
 
To The o'henery Vet student , congrats on getting into Vet school! it is very hard, you are right, much harder to get into than Med school.

I am not against Vets, I am just against appalling statements from them.

An example of this, " I would rather destroy her because i do not feel comfortable with using a fetatone as it may further injure the mare. I actually heard this person, with a Doctorate in Veterinarian Medicine say this.

Another example , necropsy of two healthy unrelate foals, dieing 3 days apart, both introduced to a new pasture 2 weeks prior, only 2 foals there, they were taken for necropsy to Arden NC, Vet said, he could not find anything wrong, so it must be congenital. I find as i have gotten older, I do not tolerate arrogance.

I am not a Vet, nor wish to be one, but as a breeder, I want to learn everything i can. I listen to knowledgeable Vets, i absorb everything they say, the meds they use, the types of flushes they do, the way they do U/S, the way they correct dystocias.

I want to be the best i can be at what i do. When i loose a foal or a mare, i take notes, I write down what i saw, what i used, and what i did, and when i did it. I try to learn from my mistakes, so hopefully i will not repeat them. I pay attention, and i learn. I have had dystocias that i have been able to correct, and some had to be by the Vet. But i did pay attention, and I learned, i continue to learn, look up what i do not know, and strive to educate myself in areas that i am weak in. Even the Vet that writes on this forum, i read everything he has to say, and will ask my Vets what they think about what he has to say about a subject.

What i expect from my Veterinarian, is that He/She continues to educate themselves, and will wrap all that up in a huge dose of common sense. I want a Vet who will not practice CYA medicine, but will make an honest effort! Not knowing the answer is not a bad thing, however Not trying to find the answer is abominable.

I am not against Vets, I am just against appalling statements from them.

I am sure you will be an outstanding Vet, one that uses common sense and knowledge to better the outcome for your patients.



 
We have all out mares palpated and internally ultrasounded. We have never had a problem. Our vet has been palpating minis for years. Occasionally we have one that is smaller and he can't palpate her. In that case, we have another vet who has very tiny hands do it.
 
We have all out mares palpated and internally ultrasounded. We have never had a problem. Our vet has been palpating minis for years. Occasionally we have one that is smaller and he can't palpate her. In that case, we have another vet who has very tiny hands do it.
 
I appreciate the congratulations, but not quite there yet!
default_smile.png
will be applying this fall, but I do have back ups in case I do not get accepted. A very good friend of mine had a 3.8 gpa with a micro major (excellent!) And a decent GRE score and she did not even get an interview. Not losing hope yet, but we'll see! I would actually really like to specialize in equine reproduction so I find threads like this very informational. You definitely have a lot of knowledge in that area! I know that even I am quick to doubt and place blame sometimes without thinking about exactly what the vet's perspective was, so just wanted to remind others that there are always 2 sides to everything and a vet might have a very good explanation for doing something that we don't think/hear about. There are also many ways to do something and I get comfortable with one way sometimes and forget about the others. I am constantly asking my new vet questions, the poor lady! She just does things differently and it takes a little more explanation to keep me from worrying. She is patient with me though, thank goodness!
 
he could not find anything wrong, so it must be congenital. I find as i have gotten older, I do not tolerate arrogance.
That is not a sign of arrogance - more likely, it is just the truth. No necropsies I have have ever had done of foals told us anything - beyond the fact that whatever affected them was congenital. Congenital simply meaning present at birth and not necessarily hereditary. There is a difference there. You seem far too quick to jump on whatever a vet has said and label them arrogant or ignorant. Just a thought... based on what you have said in this thread. I am saying that quietly and kindly - not meaning to be rude in any way.

Our horse only saw the students, never the professor.
And you know this... how? Again, I am not being rude, just curious about how quick you are to point fingers and find fault. Every case is overseen by a vet or intern/resident. Students do no have full control of any case. Not at any vet school I have ever worked with and I doubt that the one at NCSU is any different. Protocols are protocols.

Yes, it can be expensive - that goes without saying. Look at the facilities as opposed to a stall in your barn. Horses can be expenisve and any vet hospital visit will cost. We had a hefty bill for a foal who got no immunity from his mom this year - they were in the hospital for 2 weeks while he received joint flushes and IV drips and antibiotics. Even then it cost less than half of what the bill was when I was in the hospital (not the same one!) for a mere five days. Part of the liability of having animals is the potential for a medical crisis... the same goes for us humans, only it costs even more.
default_wink.png


We paid our bill in full, and got some very expensive education.
I am not being snarky, just quietly and kindly making an observation based on how you have replied here... you also seem to have acquired a lot of contempt for vets. If that QH had stayed home with you, the outcome may not have been any different in the end but at least at NCSU he was in the best hands possible and getting the best care in better surroundings and was a lot more comfortable.

You could have calmly asked to talked to the vet in charge.

Note: I am NOT saying you were behaving like the woman in my next story. Not at all. But there can be a lesson to be learned in how we interact with vets as well as the way they interact with us.

When I went up to visit our mare & foal at the hospital, a woman was yelling (and I do mean YELLING) at the vet techs that she needed to see the vet in charge of her horse immediately - who cared if said vet was in an emergency colic surgery - as she was sure her horse was simply being held there to increase her bill and he really did not need fluids, was not in shock etc. etc. Her horse was next to our mare & foal - and he was in no shape to go home with all his IV lines hanging from the ceiling and his legs wrapped for support etc. But she knew better. The vet techs struggled to be as polite with her as they could. I cringed for them. I know the woman in question. She really thinks that all vets are ignorant and arrogant and she knows better. Despite the protests of the vets at the hospital, she took that horse home. I do not need to tell you the sad outcome of that episode. Then she claimed that the horse caught something at the hospital that killed him as the vets were so incompetent. Nooooooo, he didn't. Poor horse.

Do you have to take your mares in for fetotomys? They are done at the farm here, even when they are cut at the head and pelvis, we took one out in quarters one time, but luckily the mare was fine afterwards, and had a cute little filly this year!On a dystocia where the baby has died, My Vet usually just goes in and takes the head off, its much easier and less traumatic for the mare that way, i usually work the pulleys, and his(the Vet) hand is the one in the mare for protection, and to make sure the wire is not against the mares uterus.
How many fetotomies do you have a year?? It sounds as if they are fairly normal for you based on what you say in this thread and I confess that I find that a bit alarming. Maybe I am simply misunderstanding you?

In over 20 years of foaling out minis (and big horses) I have personally been involved in only 2 fetotomies... one foal was tail first and not coming out any other way. The other foal was huuuge and was also not coming out any other way - short of a cesarean. Speaking of which, I have only one of those happen to a mare in my care. I have cared for other mares that had them who recovered at our farm, though.

I have helped friends at lambing time and the incidence of fetotomies amng the ewes was about 1 in every 10 births - a twin would get stuck sideways behind its sibling or a maiden ewe would have a huuuge lamb get stuck etc.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You are correct in the fact that The University s do have state of the art facilitys, We took a quarter horse that had a case of colic there. We were told it would be 2500.00 to walk in the door, which we had a credit card for. The horse was there for 3 days. We were charged 49.00 per bag of "special" fluid that was given IV, which we now know is code for lactate Ringer, which i can order for .79 per bag. Our horse only saw the students, never the professor. We were charged for a belly tap (which i felt was apprpriate, and did not argue about.) The Banamine we were charged 30.00 something a dose( had i known that i would have brought my own) We elected to not have surgery done because of the cost, 8-10 thousand dollars, On the third day it was apparent that the animal was not going to make it, a student called us to tell us, the student said he did not know what was going on with the animal, but for an additional 1350.00 we could have a necropsy to tell us what killed it. Needless to say, we did not opt for the necropsy. Never did a teacher or professor call us, or talk to us about anything. We paid our bill in full, and got some very expensive education.

Tagalong, i do not know how to do quotes so i will copy and paste.

.

..and therefore you were not able to evaluate the situation or the condition of the mare at the time, and whether or not the use of the fetotone would have caused her greater pain and injury/distress.easy to kill an animal

You are right as i stated i was not there, but again, it is easy to kill an animal, does not take a vet to do it. Of course fetotones can cause injury and distress, but heck, it sure beats the alternative!!!!!! Bet you would have wanted some one to give it a shot if you were the one laying there!

I would never be angry with a Vet that tried to save my animal, EVER, no matter if the Vet perforated a uterus, or killed the horse in the process of trying to save it. If the Vet thought anything they could try would give the slightest hope of life, please try it, no matter how far fetched, or how hopeless the situation seemed. I never want one of my animals (or myself for that matter) to go down without a fight!

Again, i must add that:

You have to find one (Vet) that is smart, that continues to educate themselves, and will wrap all that up in a huge dose of common sense. I want a Vet who will not practice CYA medicine, but will make an honest effort! Not knowing the answer is not a bad thing, however Not trying to find the answer is abominable!

I am glad you have had no problems with extensions, but i am still nervous about putting one in my mare, my ultrasound from EI medical came with one, so i have tried it, i can not feel as well that way, and cannot tell when the mare is straining against me, as of right now, my hand will be my extension, i can gage much better when to proceed and when to back off, when i can feel what is going on.
You are correct in the fact that The University s do have state of the art facilitys, We took a quarter horse that had a case of colic there. We were told it would be 2500.00 to walk in the door, which we had a credit card for. The horse was there for 3 days. We were charged 49.00 per bag of "special" fluid that was given IV, which we now know is code for lactate Ringer, which i can order for .79 per bag. Our horse only saw the students, never the professor. We were charged for a belly tap (which i felt was apprpriate, and did not argue about.) The Banamine we were charged 30.00 something a dose( had i known that i would have brought my own) We elected to not have surgery done because of the cost, 8-10 thousand dollars, On the third day it was apparent that the animal was not going to make it, a student called us to tell us, the student said he did not know what was going on with the animal, but for an additional 1350.00 we could have a necropsy to tell us what killed it. Needless to say, we did not opt for the necropsy. Never did a teacher or professor call us, or talk to us about anything. We paid our bill in full, and got some very expensive education.

Tagalong, i do not know how to do quotes so i will copy and paste.

.

..and therefore you were not able to evaluate the situation or the condition of the mare at the time, and whether or not the use of the fetotone would have caused her greater pain and injury/distress.easy to kill an animal

You are right as i stated i was not there, but again, it is easy to kill an animal, does not take a vet to do it. Of course fetotones can cause injury and distress, but heck, it sure beats the alternative!!!!!! Bet you would have wanted some one to give it a shot if you were the one laying there!

I would never be angry with a Vet that tried to save my animal, EVER, no matter if the Vet perforated a uterus, or killed the horse in the process of trying to save it. If the Vet thought anything they could try would give the slightest hope of life, please try it, no matter how far fetched, or how hopeless the situation seemed. I never want one of my animals (or myself for that matter) to go down without a fight!

Again, i must add that:

You have to find one (Vet) that is smart, that continues to educate themselves, and will wrap all that up in a huge dose of common sense. I want a Vet who will not practice CYA medicine, but will make an honest effort! Not knowing the answer is not a bad thing, however Not trying to find the answer is abominable!

I am glad you have had no problems with extensions, but i am still nervous about putting one in my mare, my ultrasound from EI medical came with one, so i have tried it, i can not feel as well that way, and cannot tell when the mare is straining against me, as of right now, my hand will be my extension, i can gage much better when to proceed and when to back off, when i can feel what is going on.
You are correct in the fact that The University s do have state of the art facilitys, We took a quarter horse that had a case of colic there. We were told it would be 2500.00 to walk in the door, which we had a credit card for. The horse was there for 3 days. We were charged 49.00 per bag of "special" fluid that was given IV, which we now know is code for lactate Ringer, which i can order for .79 per bag. Our horse only saw the students, never the professor. We were charged for a belly tap (which i felt was apprpriate, and did not argue about.) The Banamine we were charged 30.00 something a dose( had i known that i would have brought my own) We elected to not have surgery done because of the cost, 8-10 thousand dollars, On the third day it was apparent that the animal was not going to make it, a student called us to tell us, the student said he did not know what was going on with the animal, but for an additional 1350.00 we could have a necropsy to tell us what killed it. Needless to say, we did not opt for the necropsy. Never did a teacher or professor call us, or talk to us about anything. We paid our bill in full, and got some very expensive education.

Tagalong, i do not know how to do quotes so i will copy and paste.

.

..and therefore you were not able to evaluate the situation or the condition of the mare at the time, and whether or not the use of the fetotone would have caused her greater pain and injury/distress.easy to kill an animal

You are right as i stated i was not there, but again, it is easy to kill an animal, does not take a vet to do it. Of course fetotones can cause injury and distress, but heck, it sure beats the alternative!!!!!! Bet you would have wanted some one to give it a shot if you were the one laying there!

I would never be angry with a Vet that tried to save my animal, EVER, no matter if the Vet perforated a uterus, or killed the horse in the process of trying to save it. If the Vet thought anything they could try would give the slightest hope of life, please try it, no matter how far fetched, or how hopeless the situation seemed. I never want one of my animals (or myself for that matter) to go down without a fight!

Again, i must add that:

You have to find one (Vet) that is smart, that continues to educate themselves, and will wrap all that up in a huge dose of common sense. I want a Vet who will not practice CYA medicine, but will make an honest effort! Not knowing the answer is not a bad thing, however Not trying to find the answer is abominable!

I am glad you have had no problems with extensions, but i am still nervous about putting one in my mare, my ultrasound from EI medical came with one, so i have tried it, i can not feel as well that way, and cannot tell when the mare is straining against me, as of right now, my hand will be my extension, i can gage much better when to proceed and when to back off, when i can feel what is going on.
1) Your horse DID see vets, even if you didn't know. NO horse in a VTH only sees students.

2) You can't bring your own drugs. When you go to the dentist, do you bring your own nitrous?

3) VTH's are the clinics that teach the clinics... the students there are incidental, helpers and observers. The real power is the PROFESSORS. Yes, senior students will do a LOT of stuff, ALWAYS under the direction of a vet. NEVER independantly.

Sounds like you really have an issue with this, I can see the passion in your words. VTH's are some of the cheapest clinics to bring your animals to. The costs you listed are COMPLETELY NORMAL for ANY clinic, never mind a teaching hospital. Very often a vet will be outclassed in the field. Going for help, and knowing when to ask for help, is one of the first things you learn in school. Going alone is how you end up in trouble and unable to deal with the situation. While I competely understand how stressful and upsetting the situation was, from the outside looking in your vet was nothing but professional. Was it ideal? HECK NO!!! But it might have been the best that could have been done at the time and place.

As far as YOU not being upset if the vet tries and makes things worse, his/her insurance rate and history with the majority of patients, AND THE LAW, all disagree. Its admiral you feel that way, although from reading your posts here I can't see you holding to that promise (due to the intensity and passion I read, which isn't a bad thing!). Stepping out of the bounds of comfort is a VERY bad first step towards disaster. You have to know when you are out of your zone and need help.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Although I respect anyone's right to be upset for whatever reason, I also feel compelled to respond to a post. I do not intend to sway the Poster's opinions as I respect the fact that I do not know everything that took place to make them feel the way they do, but I would like to clarify some things so if others are in the same spot then maybe they can be more comfortable with the outcome.

One Vet told a friend of mine in Raleigh recently, take the horse to the vet school, My friends response to her Vet was " I thought you went to the Vet school, if you did not learn how to get a baby out, how can anyone there, less educated, and much less experienced know anything more?"

Veterinary Teaching Hospitals are considered tertiary referral facilities. Tertiary describes 3rd level specialized care which is the highest available. Although students are present, they do very, very little. They never make decisions and only rarely do procedures. Residents are erroneously thought of as being students because they still attend class, but the classes are not Veterinary classes, rather they are classes like statistics that teach them how to do research down the road. Residents are fully educated practicing doctors who were in the top 1% of their class from around the world. Veterinary Teaching Hospitals are full of people that not only know more than general practitioners about specific areas, they also are surrounded by other experts in different fields like anesthesia which allows a Surgeon to concentrate on just the surgery.

i would want someone to attempt to save my life, go above and beyond what they were "comfortable" doing, to do any and all last ditch attempts, no matter how far fetched it may seem, to save my life. Death only when absolutely everything has been tried and has failed.

"Primo non nocere." First, do no harm. It is an oath all Doctors took and it should be at the cornerstone of how we practice. The Author of the above post cannot imagine something worse than death. Those of us in the industry and trained to do the job can imagine fates worse than death.

We were charged 49.00 per bag of "special" fluid that was given IV, which we now know is code for lactate Ringer, which i can order for .79 per bag. The Banamine we were charged 30.00 something a dose( had i known that i would have brought my own)

The 'bags' of fluid you are referring to are either 3 or 5 liter (more likely 5) bags of LRS. The last ones I bought cost me $11.46. The average cost for Vets to get a product from needing to order, to receiving and storing on a shelf, to distribution to a patient is $20.55. I do not consider either the LRS or Banamine charges to be out of line. Consider what the charge would be to receive a Tylenol at a Human Hospital understanding that the cost must reflect not only the 'cost' of the drug but also the cost to order/store/administer the drug.

I hope this helps to clarify some of the good points brought up in this thread.

Dr Taylor
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks so much for all of your posts, Dr. Taylor.

Susan O.
 
Wish i knew how to do quotes, i cant so i will explain my feelings, and i do appreciate you taking time to read what i wrote, and reply, even though i think we will dissagree on a few things, i like hearing what others think on a subject, and i do not think you are rude.

That is not a sign of arrogance - more likely, it is just the truth. No necropsies I have have ever had done of foals told us anything - beyond the fact that whatever affected them was congenital. Congenital simply meaning present at birth and not necessarily hereditary. There is a difference there. You seem far too quick to jump on whatever a vet has said and label them arrogant or ignorant. Just a thought... based on what you have said in this thread. I am saying that quietly and kindly - not meaning to be rude in any way.

i had 29 foals born that year , all healthy, 2 were sold, and moved to the same new pasture, both foals perished 3 days apart, 2 foals dieing 3 days apart that were put on a new pasture 2 weeks prior. It is very hard for me to accept, that this man purchased the only 2 foals that year that died of congenital health issues, and both died 3 days apart. I think most people would at least " raise an eyebrow" at that scenario.

Just because a Dr. cannot find something wrong, does not mean there was nothing to be found. Maybe he was NOT perceptive enough to find it. When i spoke with Dr. Drum, the only thing i said was could you look again, maybe with some help, because that is hard for me to accept, Dr. Drum said he would, and said he found that scenario odd. I said I did not find it odd, i found it very disturbing.

How many fetotomies do you have a year?? It sounds as if they are fairly normal for you based on what you say in this thread and I confess that I find that a bit alarming. Maybe I am simply misunderstanding you?

No , you did not misunderstand me, out of 32 foals last year , the first two were fetotomys, both presented in about the same way, front legs coming out head turned backwards on one, and the others head pointing down between the front legs. Gosh knows i tried all i knew how. I will usually have at least 2 dystocias of some sort per year, some i can fix, some are not fixable by me. I foal out between 30-36 mares per year. i use mare stare and equipage. And life as i know it ceases between March till the middle of July. Dr. Schulze could push , pull, and tug to get it out in one piece, but its just much easier, and less time consuming to take the head off and get it out, the foal has deceased anyway. You are fortunate to have only had a couple of fetotomys, wish i could say the same! Please share your secret! I would love to learn it!

I would also like to state that i did not use NCSU, My horse went to Virginia, as i had him boarded in Ivanhoe Virginia at the time. But maybe you are right , i should have used NCSU, i will remember next time. We ask to speak to the Person in charge several times and left messages for them to call us, so we could talk about the situation. only talked with the student caring for my animal. I was never rude, but i do feel i deserved a call back, even though i feel you are right in the fact, the outcome would not have been different. I feel he would have been much more comfortable in his own stall in familiar surroundings, i hate he died in the hospital, wish i could take that back.

Things Virginia Tech taught me: i can run IV fluid, I can put in a stomach tube correctly, without bloodying a horses nose, I can successfully administer Banamine, and Buscopam IV. Things i cannot do, and will never learn to do: stomach tap. and all for a mere 5200.00. cheap education is what i call it!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
lil hoofbeats - it seems you are still missing the point that many of us are trying to make... even if your QH had gone to NCSU, you would likely have decided the care was inadequate - just as your friend informed the vet caring for her horses in no uncertain terms. IMO your friend was out of line with her comments as you have related them and also had no understanding of how the vet teaching hospital facilites work - which is what some of us have been trying to explain to you. I have explained, Dr. Taylor has explained, Nathan has explained - and yet you still seem to be annoyed about "arrogance" and "ignorance".

I was never rude, but i do feel i deserved a call back, even though i feel you are right in the fact, the outcome would not have been different. I feel he would have been much more comfortable in his own stall in familiar surroundings, i hate he died in the hospital, wish i could take that back.

Things Virginia Tech taught me: i can run IV fluid, I can put in a stomach tube correctly, without bloodying a horses nose, I can successfully administer Banamine, and Buscopam IV. Things i cannot do, and will never learn to do: stomach tap. and all for a mere 5200.00. cheap education is what i call it!
You should have had a call back but as I have no idea what was going on at the hospital then, the circumstances or the communications you had been having, I am not able to determine a suitable time frame or know what was said or should have been said. One more time - it would not have been just a student working on your horse. As to being rude, you may not have thought you were but being upset and under stress, you may have been abrupt and not realized it. Some of what you have written here shows that you can be passionate and not chose the best words. You called us crazy for using a probe - as you knew better. You have complained repeatedly about arrogance and ignorance and sneered at the idea of taking a horse to a vet hospital and yet were completely wrong about what goes on there. I am just trying to help you out here... and not intending to be rude.

I can administer drugs IV. I can do a stomach tube - and yet have seen others mess their horses up when they tried to as they were trying to "save money". It is a lot more involved than just trying to avoid a bloody nose. A bloody nose can happen to even the best of vets every so often. I can do a lot of things - and yet when extra care is needed, you can bet that horse is going to the hospital, in far more sanitary conditions and with the right equipment and skills close at hand. I only WISH we had a vet school closer than 4 - 5 hours away. You should consider yourself lucky that you seem to have two of them close at hand. The one time we had a horse at WSU in Pullman, everyone was kind and helpful and went out of their way to make sure our horse had the best of care. And on the day I arrived to pick him up and take him home, a crowd of students, interns, residents & vets came out to say goodbye to him.

"Primo non nocere." First, do no harm. It is an oath all Doctors took and it should be at the cornerstone of how we practice. The Author of the above post cannot imagine something worse than death. Those of us in the industry and trained to do the job can imagine fates worse than death.
I have seen some fates worse than death in the past. A mare so full of infection after a bad foaling that you could smell her from outside the barn. The owner thought she would be cured with some procaine and stall rest and had rebuffed the vet who said she was too far gone and should be put down. That mare lingered and suffered and leaked foul smelling fluid for 2 weeks as the weight melted off her. There are most certainly fates worse than death.

I'll spare all of you any further horror stories....
 
Dr. Taylor, thank you for taking time to address the issues i have had. I read all your post, and find them educational, and this one is no different.

Veterinary Teaching Hospitals are considered tertiary referral facilities. Tertiary describes 3rd level specialized care which is the highest available. Although students are present, they do very, very little. They never make decisions and only rarely do procedures. Residents are erroneously thought of as being students because they still attend class, but the classes are not Veterinary classes, rather they are classes like statistics that teach them how to do research down the road. Residents are fully educated practicing doctors who were in the top 1% of their class from around the world. Veterinary Teaching Hospitals are full of people that not only know more than general practitioners about specific areas, they also are surrounded by other experts in different fields like anesthesia which allows a Surgeon to concentrate on just the surgery.

I did not know this! I am 100% sure you are right, but.... they really did not seem like the top 1%???? i mean maybe i was just nervous about their judgments because i have never used those particular people as my Vet, and was unsure of their ability????

i would want someone to attempt to save my life, go above and beyond what they were "comfortable" doing, to do any and all last ditch attempts, no matter how far fetched it may seem, to save my life. Death only when absolutely everything has been tried and has failed.

"Primo non nocere." First, do no harm. It is an oath all Doctors took and it should be at the cornerstone of how we practice. The Author of the above post cannot imagine something worse than death. Those of us in the industry and trained to do the job can imagine fates worse than death.

I had a colt one time suffering from choke, for over 36 hours, he had a CRT of 6 seconds, fast, labored breathing, and by that time, aspiration pneumonia, he was circling the drain (and i mean going down fast.) When Dr. Schultz came, and saw, he said the foal would not survive, he sat there for a few minutes thinking ( probably about "Primo non nocere.") and said, "well i am here, so i might as well try something" It could rupture his esophagus, and that could kill him, but he is going to surely die if nothing is done, do you want me to try?". without hesitation, i said "heck yes i want you to try, thats why i called you!" By a MIRICLE, and i do mean MIRICLE and Dr. Schultz ability and willingness to give it a shot, however a long shot it may have been , he survived!!!! I am forever amazed at what animals and humans can live through, and how easily life can be extinguished. I understand how easily the foal could have died, i knew the risk, and i am sure the procedure the Vet did caused some pain to the foal. But if he had died, at least he would have been given a chance, no matter how slim it was.

i would want someone to attempt to save my life, go above and beyond what they were "comfortable" doing, to do any and all last ditch attempts, no matter how far fetched it may seem, to save my life. Death only when absolutely everything has been tried and has failed.

Me, Julie Sherrill , am the author of that post! and i mean every word i wrote!!!

Those of us in the industry and trained to do the job can imagine fates worse than death.

One should NEVER destroy life, all life is valuable, and EVERY attempt to preserve it should be made, no matter how slim the chance or how far fetched a good outcome may seem. Try something! Give a B12 shot if nothing else can be done! If the animal lives you will be a hero, and B12 the new "miricle" drug, it it dies well, at least you did something! (Hope you are catching my drift here)

"Primo non nocere." is that latin??? What are the Latin words for "Take a Chance" sometimes i have found taking a chance can work in my favor. I am sure Dr. Schults was thinking about that "do no harm" thing, but he decided to take a chance, and i am sure glad he did.

The 'bags' of fluid you are referring to are either 3 or 5 liter (more likely 5) bags of LRS. The last ones I bought cost me $11.46. The average cost for Vets to get a product from needing to order, to receiving and storing on a shelf, to distribution to a patient is $20.55. I do not consider either the LRS or Banamine charges to be out of line. Consider what the charge would be to receive a Tylenol at a Human Hospital understanding that the cost must reflect not only the 'cost' of the drug but also the cost to order/store/administer the drug.

You are right the bags of LRS that i priced are for humans, so maybe the cost for horses is greater. But i still consider the cost of Buscopam, and Banamine that was given, extremely excessive, as i can but the whole bottle for the cost of one dose that was given. So yes, i consider it excessive.

But thank you for posting, you have made some valid points, and i will consider what you have pointed out, if/when i use another teaching school. I have learned from your post, and as always, will pay attention and try to get everything out of it i can, and what i do not understand i will ask and try to learn, just like your post about sterile water, i found out why both my repo Vets use this, and why they still continue to use this, but you were 100% correct in what you said about it!!!
 
Tagalong' it seems you are still missing the point that many of us are trying to make... even if your QH had gone to NCSU, you would likely have decided the care was inadequate -

I am not so sure about that, yes, i did not understand exactly how a teaching hospital works, but it would have surely been nice to get a call from someone about my horse and its updates, they could have given me an update when they called to tell me they were charging my credit card for something else, you know...kinda kill 2 birds with one stone!

I can administer drugs IV. I can do a stomach tube - and yet have seen others mess their horses up when they tried to as they were trying to "save money". It is a lot more involved than just trying to avoid a bloody nose. A bloody nose can happen to even the best of vets every so often.

It can, but i have been doing this for myself many times for the past 3-4 years, with no problems, i feel am am better than most at them, maybe because i am much more careful about how i do it. Bloody noses are really no biggie, i just try to do it better.

As far as stateing ya'll were crazy, you are right that was a bit harsh of me! i really was not trying to be mean when i said it though, kinda just a thought that flew through my fingers and got posted!

"Primo non nocere." First, do no harm. It is an oath all Doctors took and it should be at the cornerstone of how we practice. The Author of the above post cannot imagine something worse than death. Those of us in the industry and trained to do the job can imagine fates worse than death.

Sorry Dr. Taylor and Tagalong, just ain't gonna swallow that one.

Nathan As far as YOU not being upset if the vet tries and makes things worse, his/her insurance rate and history with the majority of patients, AND THE LAW, all disagree. Its admiral you feel that way, although from reading your posts here I can't see you holding to that promise (due to the intensity and passion I read, which isn't a bad thing!).

I will never complaine about a Vet who is willing to try, and give life a chance! EVER!If a Dr. thought running over my horse with a truck could possible save it,( just a figure of speech) i would be the first to start the engine, and step on the gas.

I never complaine about a Dr. willing to try, only the ones that throw in the towel.

You have to find one (Vet) that is smart, that continues to educate themselves, and will wrap all that up in a huge dose of common sense. I want a Vet who will not practice CYA medicine, but will make an honest effort! Not knowing the answer is not a bad thing, however Not trying to find the answer is abominable!

My motto "GIVE LIFE EVERY POSSIBLE CHANCE!" NEVER SAY DIE!

As i have gotten older i have realized , i am not always right, but i refuse to stay ignorant, i try not to be arrogant, and i am much less tolerant of these quality s in others.



 

Latest posts

Back
Top