Internal scanning of pregnant mares

[mshasta88]

I usually have a couple scanned every year and I have never had a problem as far as the procedure goes. Once I had a mare that they estimated to be about five week along but couldn’t find a heartbeat. Turns out that mare lost it before the scan and sluffed the fetus shortly after. I try to make sure I take them to female vets because of their smaller hands. Most of my mares were done without sedation but had the drugs pulled and ready just in case.

 

[tagalong]

Sorry Dr. Taylor and Tagalong, just ain't gonna swallow that one.

There is nothing to swallow - as no one is feeding you anything. What Dr. Taylor and I said was a cold, hard fact. There are fates worth than being put down and avoiding undue pain and suffering that will never end. Would you care for more stories seeing as you seem to think it is a fairy tale?

Tales about minis... tales about warmbloods... tales about draft horses. All of them sadly true. I have worked in the industry in assorted disciplines and breeds for a very long time - and I can assure you that there are fates worse than a gentle death.

As far as the choke situation goes - if that esophagus had ruptured I am wondering if you would be here complaining about the incompetence of that vet... you see how that works? Our vet knows that in a dire situation we can try anything (and have) - as long as it does not prolong the suffering beyond a reasonable point. Yes, we would have gone after that choke. And if it had gone wrong, I would not have been upset with him as we had to take that chance. I had to take a chance on a visiting mare who had a terrible case of choke - I was the only one here and if I did nothing, she was going to die right in front of me and her foal. This is NOT something anyone should just try - but the situation was desperate. I found the lump in her esophagus and massaged it. I could have killed her. She was going to die without intervention and was spinning backwards around the stall. Lucky for me (and her) I managed to break it up and she was standing trembling and shaking, gasping for air. I explained it all to her owner afterwards and they were fine with it - but what if the outcome had not been good? Again, not something I recommend.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Wait.... you complain about a $20 shot of banamine, but you want the vet to do something UNNESSESARY and bill you for it, knowing it would be entirely placebo if it worked?! Talk about a double standard!!

Yes, residents are the top of the top graduating class. They are already a DVM (except you poor people in PA who insist upon VMD's); graduated from Vet school. They then a) had the drive and b) had the ability to apply to a VERY VERY VERY exclusive position. Of the hundreds of vets who graduate each year, only a small handful can find a residency. They then spend the next two or more years specializing in a paticular area, working usually on a MS AND studying for board certification in their specialty AND conducting research. They will be the specialists you bring your horse to at regional hospitals. Nobody does a residency and gets board certified to be a road vet. Yes, their preceptors are even MORE highly trained/certified, and they will have a very active role in your horse's treatment, even if you never meet them. They work behind the scenes, supervising the resident, consulting with them, and generally watching them learn. Teaching hospitals like Dr Taylor said, are the highest rung on the ladder of hospitals. There is no better place to go! No other clinic will have more resources, more contacts, or more modalities available to them. None. There may be GREAT hospitals out there (and I've worked for/with several!) but when those hospitals run out of ideas, they go to VTH's. Even if your horse doesn't, their information and their case will be known at the VTH specializing in the area of your horse's issue.

And believe me! I've been on both sides of the fence. I spent close to $9,000 the year before last on my stallion. We started with my local vet (who is PHENOMINAL), moved up to Rood and Riddle (the second largest hospital in the country), and from there came close to going up to OSU for their CT machine (since the MRI at R&R didn't reveal what we were looking for). They charged me $200 to PULL MY HORSE'S SHOES!! And the answer we ended up getting was VERY much less than satisfactory.

And I'm sorry YOU don't feel this way, but the law and sue-happy people out there very much dictate that vets not step out on a limb when it comes to radical treatments they aren't comfortable or qualified to do. Will I throw away my career, my family's finances, and any hope of retirement, to step out on a limb and try something I'm not qualified to do on your horse, just because in the heat of the moment, you beg me and promise you won't sue? HECK NO!!! if there is a realistic chance, the vet is comfortable taking the risk, and the moon and stars are aligned correctly, it may work. But that is the exception, not the rule. The 2% of people who MEAN what you say are in the vast, vast minority.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Tagalong_As far as the choke situation goes - if that esophagus had ruptured I am wondering if you would be here complaining about the incompetence of that vet...

That is a presumptuous statement,, and borders on insulting, I have tried to be respectful of you,, and would appreciate the same in return

As i have stated many times in this thread, NO I WOULD NEVER BE ANGRY WITH A VET THAT TRIED, ALL I EVER ASK IS FOR SOMEONE TO TRY!

I will never complain about a Vet who is willing to try, and give life a chance! EVER!If a Dr. thought running over my horse with a truck could possible save it,( just a figure of speech) i would be the first to start the engine, and step on the gas.

I never complaine about a Dr. willing to try, only the ones that throw in the towel. I am sure when Dr. Schults saw that colt he considered "Primo non nocere." , it would have been easy for him to do nothing, He was going to get paid regardless

But decided to try to save it, the colt was dieing anyway! I had nothing to loose but could gain everything.. And luckily i did.

There is nothing to swallow - as no one is feeding you anything. What Dr. Taylor and I said was a cold, hard fact. There are fates worth than being put down and avoiding undue pain and suffering that will never end. Would you care for more stories seeing as you seem to think it is a fairy tale?

Tales about minis... tales about warmbloods... tales about draft horses. All of them sadly true. I have worked in the industry in assorted disciplines and breeds for a very long time - and I can assure you that there are fates worse than a gentle death.

Sorry I do not see death as a fairy tale, I see it as the final act, and once you end a life, there is no taking that back. I work in a hospital, and see some people, who should have died, live, and others who should have been fine die. Same with some of the animals i have had. I do not understand why some live that were so sick and others die that did not seem that bad off, that is why as long as they draw breath something can be done to help them. I do not believe in a gentle death.

AGAIN I WILL say loud and clear

If the Vet thought anything they could try would give the slightest hope of life, please try it, no matter how far fetched, or how hopeless the situation seemed. I never want one of my animals (or myself for that matter) to go down without a fight!

This is the way i feel about life in general, IT WILL NOT CHANGE!

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Nathan-Wait.... you complain about a $20 shot of banamine, but you want the vet to do something UNNESSESARY and bill you for it, knowing it would be entirely placebo if it worked?! Talk about a double standard!!

Aint no double standard,up in here! the whole bottle of Banamine cost 30.00 and they charged me that per dose, actually a little more i think. As far as B12, The Vet i use never has charged for that.

Point is, DO SOMETHING, I do not call a Vet to kill an animal! Anyone can do that. I call him because i need him to do something productive for that animal.

Nathan with all these rescources, preceptors, contacts and Modalities, and all these people with the A) ability and b)the drive and the, VERY VERY VERY exclusive positions, and the .behind the scenes,people supervising the resident, consulting with them, and generally watching them, I would have thought someone could have kept me a little better informed. Maybe they were just behind the scene, and did not want to be on the scene.

One thing for sure about those " behind the scene people"They sure did keep my credit card informed LOL!

I was able to get to talk with someone named Mike who worked there doing something,,might have been the janitor, not sure really, i know he was not a Dr. yet, but he was nice and tried to tell me as much as he knew how.

I will not entertain appalling statements by Veterinarians, , Medical Doctors , my family , or my boyfriend, However i will entertain them here on this forum.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

My vet used to charge a $15 injection fee, to cover the liability, cost of the training, syringes, and other expenses related to giving the shot. Then he charged 200% of the cost of the medicine in the injection. Funny thing is, it ended up costing the same as people who charge one fee for injections. However, that includes his professional time sitting there ready to react to a reaction, the training to treat said reaction, the materials involved in that, etc. What would you do if you gave an injection and the horse had a reaction to it? Call a vet? Too late! That's a risk ALL of us take every day, when we give injections. We gamble. The vet can actually DO something. You are also paying him for his evaluation of the animal, since you don't just walk up and inject and walk away. You do an assessment first. Heck, one vet I worked for gave a complete physical exam before giving annual vaccines, and was FIRM on the idea that it was the responsible thing to do pre-vaccination, and therefore the cost should be part of the vaccines. His charge for vaccines was competitive for the area. So you are paying for that assessment too. Oh, and you are also kicking in for the shipping for that injection, since pharmacudical companies **** us on shipping. And for the portion of his building that he uses to store the drugs. Wonder what that comes down to on a square foot basis?

You must not use vets very often... that's always been SOP in my experience. An injection of xylazine is $23, when a bottle is $25. Just the way it is. If you don't like it, spend the $300k for a vet med degree, IF you can get into one of the 20 schools in the country.

Oh, btw.... keeping you informed of what they are DOING is mandatory, but keeping you informed of the results is kinda hard, if there is nothing new to report! What would the doc do in a human hospital, if a patient kept asking for updates? Eventually, they'd avoid them like the plague. Doesn't mean they are ignoring you, just avoiding your constant question they can't answer. If you work in a hospital you should have more of an appreciation for it... it was pretty clear to me the first week I was working on a hospital floor. (Human hospital, but the same is true for vets)

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Nathan- You must not use vets very often..

I try to do what i can myself,, just basic stuff like preg checks,, general vaccines, uterine flushing,, giving pain medicine and stomach tubing mineral oil and those sorts of things. So Nathan you are correct, i am just not use to paying high prices for the Vet doing those things. And the cost that i paid in Virginia was the "norm". now i dont feel so bad about "kicking" in the extra. .Thank you for pointing that out.

First of all i doubt someone my age (42 SCARY TYPING THAT ONE!!) could get in Vet school, , my IQ is high enough, but i am not that devoted. It is extremely hard to get in , i knew this before it was pointed out in this thread, as i had a friend that tried, he could not get in, he went to Campbell, and now has a Doctorate in Pharmacy. When i have an Extra 300 thousand laying around and nothing to do with it, i will let all you guys know so ya'll can help me figure out how to spend it!

.

Nathan- Oh, btw.... keeping you informed of what they are DOING is mandatory, but keeping you informed of the results is kinda hard, if there is nothing new to report! What would the doc do in a human hospital, if a patient kept asking for updates? Eventually, they'd avoid them like the plague. Doesn't mean they are ignoring you, just avoiding your constant question they can't answer. If you work in a hospital you should have more of an appreciation for it... it was pretty clear to me the first week I was working on a hospital floor. (Human hospital, but the same is true for vets)

, Nathan, i think one of my biggest gripes with Virginia, was them NOT keeping me informed,, my attempt to speak with the person in charge, were not returned, just maybe an update now and then, would have alleviated my anxiety, Maybe just a call saying, "hey,,i saw your horse today, and this is what we are going to try and do for him, " And after you and Dr. Taylor explaining how great these Dr. there are, and all the resources they had, that phone call should have been done by them.

Like i said, i did not walk away from that experience empty handed, i received some valuable education, Other than the belly tap, everything else i feel could have been done "in farm" and the horse would have been more comfortable at home, and i could have saved a good amount of cash.



Nathan - If you work in a hospital you should have more of an appreciation for it... it was pretty clear to me the first week I was working on a hospital floor. (Human hospital, but the same is true for vets)

I work part time in a hospital, and part time in a medical clinic (CardiologyIinternal medicine) I hope to never become a type of person to avoid patients, or their questions or concerns. They are important to me, and the Dr.s I have had the privilege of working with, i believe feel the same. I have seen upset family members, and when they were kept informed, they seemed less anxious. I hope i always treat people kindly and with respect, as well as their family members.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Preg checks, uterine flushes, stomach tubing, etc are NOT basic stuff and are not things that the average, or even above average, horse owner should be doing. You are taking large risks upon yourself. They are invasive procedures that should be done by a vet.

 

[tagalong]

I have to agree with Nathan about that... ^ . Maybe minus the stomach tubing as I had to do that 3X a day for a gelding who had tansy poisoning and it was prohibitive for the vet to have to come and do it. Not to mention time consuming. He watched me do it a few times and then gave me the green light.

We learned how to palpate for preg checks back in school but I would not do it as a matter of course. I have done it on small mares in the past when we did palpations for preg checks and my hands were much smaller than the vet's - but only in his presence and under his direction.

That is a presumptuous statement,, and borders on insulting, I have tried to be respectful of you,, and would appreciate the same in return

It was not meant to be insulting... not at all. Just part of the discussion. On the other hand, you have called us crazy, suggested we were endangering horses, shown complete disdain for our thoughts/opinions at times and made disparaging remarks about a lot of veterinary practices and professionals...

At least we helped you understand how a vet school/teaching hospital works. Your friend's comments to that vet were still completely inappropriate.

As far as Fates Worse Than Death...

A life lingering on in pain and distress with no hope whatsoever of recovery and a long slow slide downhill is not better than a quiet and caring release to relieve that horse from all that suffering.

Or even a life filled with chronic pain with no "quality of life"... like the mare in this video... (warning - graphic hoof issues)

http://youtu.be/YZxJnPZvz-8

******

Here is one way to quote something or make multiple quotes - that will make it easier for you...

Highlight what you want to quote in the original post and copy it. Paste it into the post you are making. Highlight it again and then click on the little cartoon talk "balloon" in the menu icon strip just above the posting box. It is the 7th one in from the right... or at least, that is how it looks on my Mac...

And voila! A quote!

 

[Joanne]

It is clear from these postings that we are all passionate about our horses, which is good.

I too feel that death is such a final step that it should be approached with the utmost respect and kindness it can be, and should be a last resort, as there is no going backwards.

Each horse owner has a great responsibility to care for their horses. This includes finding a competent equine veterinarian BEFORE we need them and using them on a regular basis so that communication lines remain open.

I see nothing wrong with brainstorming with the veterinarian, encouraging them to contact another veterinarian for insights, and going to a more advanced facility if needed. I have a bookcase filled with equine and veterinary books, however I depend on my competent equine veterinarian to perform the necessary tests and proceedures.

He knows that if I call him during a birth that I have already tried what I know and that I am unsuccessful, and need his advanced ability to help my mare.

My job is to keep the lines of communication open, to let him know that if we both cannot find a solution, that I am willing to move my horse to another facility in order to save the animal.

There are several large animal veterinarians in my area that I have no interest in taking care of my horses. I just do not feel comfortable with how they paractice. This is no different from choosing a pediatrician. Our horses cannot talk, they need us to find the best people we can to care for them when they are in need.

I treasure my equine veterinarian and want him to be part of my breeding program. His insights have been appreciated.

I would personally rather be in front of my horse comforting them the best I can and have the veterinarian be in the rear removing a foal. As I am often the first on the scene, I will do what I have to do to help my mare. Time is always a factor, and not always on our side.

As horse owners we should be striving to take the best care possible of our horses, and this includes providing excellent equine medical care when needed.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Preg checks, uterine flushes, stomach tubing, etc are NOT basic stuff and are not things that the average, or even above average, horse owner should be doing. You are taking large risks upon yourself. They are invasive procedures that should be done by a vet.

found it!

When i bought my U/S machine from EI medical, I paid Dr. Shultz to come out and show me how to use it,( putting my hand in a mares rectum, how far to go in and such) he spent about an hour and we did 5 minis that morning. He knew why i hired him to come out, and he sold me the Xylazine, and the Buscopam to use. I am sure he thought it was OK for me to do it, or would have refused teach me how.There are several farms that have their own U/S machines and use them regularly, and consider it pretty basic stuff, . I am no different, i will continue to do my own, and am pretty good at it.

As far as flushing mares. i learned from another Vet, I actually was shown how by him, and we used 3 of my own mares, 2 that had recently foaled, and one that i was having trouble getting in foal. He knew why i wanted to learn to do it, because i told him i wanted to do it myself instead of hauling mares to him to do it. He said if i was doing my own U/S that flushing that is should be easy for me. He was right! A cervical opening when a mare is in heat ,is not hard to find and i performed 2 of them in front of him, as he instructed me how to do it, the third one i did,on my own in front of him.. Uterine flushing is not hard, and i found is MUCH easier than AI,. AI you have to be so careful, seems like almost everything including water, and the rubber end of the syringe is spermicidal! But i did have a decent success rate..

Tagalong___Stomach tubing--to me is MUCh harder, and i am much less confident in my ability, in fact i check recheck and check again to make sure i get it in the esophagus, and not in the airway. I blow into it to make sure the horse does not cough, i feel for it going down the side of its neck, and still worry! To me this is SOOOO much more dangerous!!!! and given the opportunity would prefer someone else to do it.. So i must dissagree with you about that, it is not easy. Doable, but not easy!

As far as uterine flushing, and U/S, .... that is basic everyday stuff around here, and has been for the last 7 years. It is easy and just part of my regular routine,

A life lingering on in pain and distress with no hope whatsoever of recovery and a long slow slide downhill is not better than a quiet and caring release to relieve that horse from all that suffering.

When you kill something, That is the big finale, aint no take'in back! It should NEVER be a comfortable thing to do. Certainly not because Dr. is not comfortable in using a fetatone!!!! performing CPR would definitely put me out of my comfort zone, but if someone coded and was dieing in front of me, i would dang sure try! , I am sure you and Nathan, and Dr. Taylor would too!!!! Sometimes stepping out of our "comfort zone" is of paramount importance to life.

Again, If the Vet thought anything they could try would give the slightest hope of life, please try it, no matter how far fetched, or how hopeless the situation seemed. I never want one of my animals (or myself for that matter) to go down without a fight!

This is the way i feel about life in general, IT WILL NOT CHANGE! I expect my Vet to do/try something, and thank goodness he does, sometimes it works sometimes it fails. Either way he is my hero, because he tried.

I can appreciate your comment about "quality of life," i fully understand what that means, but who determines that?. What i consider "quality of life". may be different than how you see."quality of life." So who would be right, you or me?.

 

[tagalong]

I can appreciate your comment about "quality of life," i fully understand what that means, but who determines that?. What i consider "quality of life". may be different than how you see."quality of life." So who would be right, you or me?.

Do you think that mare walking on the front of her coronary bands in that video was going to have quality of life? That was unfixable by that point. Her life must have been one long, agonizing test of endurance. Read the comments on that vid - many people thought it was unfair to put her down. What did they think could have been done? No farrier could have set her right.

Quality of life = able to be a horse. Maybe not gallop and buck and run and play - but have a life free of pain. Enjoy the sun. Move around somewhat freely. Graze/eat. Socialize.

I am not sure where you seem to have gotten the notion that Nathan, Dr. Taylor or I would advocate taking the "easy" or "convenient" way out as you seem to imply - as that is not what we have been saying. Of course you try what you can - but at some point you need to take a step back and see the big picture.

I treated that gelding with tansy poisoning for many weeks. I tubed him 3 times a day - actually, I just looked it up and it was 4 times a day. I fussed and fretted over him as the weight melted off him despite my best efforts. And in the end, he went through a devastating, HORRIFIC final night that should not have happened. I would not wish what he went through that night on any horse. And I could have spared him that distress if I had not "fought" so hard for him - knowing that there really was no hope. To this day, I am disappointed in myself that I put him through that when it was not necessary. Shame. On. Me. First, do no harm. Our vet supported me in my decision but knew it was a losing battle and advised against it. But it was my choice, not his. I had to try, right? Wrong. In the end, I failed that horse.

If I ever have to deal with a horse with that diagnosis again, I will not fail him/her. I will spare them what I know will come. There is no quality of life there, either. And the end of the story cannot be changed no matter how hard you fight.

So i must dissagree with you about that, it is not easy. Doable, but not easy!

I do not think I EVER said it was easy - far from it. Not at all. I just said it was the only procedure you listed that I have done extensively.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Wow... I'm quite shocked those vets taught you. They can be in a WORLD of trouble if something happened. I've palpated and ultrasounded through the university when I was teaching vet students and working on my MS, and after seeing what can go wrong, and how careful those instructors were, I'm very shocked. They were reluctant to teach me, and I never did do enough to be truly comfortable and competent. That takes months/years and hundreds of mares a month. I only did a few dozen.

Flushes are pretty easy, if done ******lly. Not much different than AI. So I can KINDA see a vet showing someone how.

Tubing can be deadly in the wrong hands. One oops, one forgetting to verify location, and you'll drown your horse in seconds. Or, cause a lingering death through aspiration pnumonia.

Anyone who gets so comfortable with these tasks that they forget how dangerous and deadly they are needs to take a step back and think about it for a while, and get a new respect for the VERY invasive procedures they are doing. One oops and you've taken a life, and NOT the humane, controlled way of euthanasia.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Do you think that mare walking on the front of her coronary bands in that video was going to have quality of life? That was unfixable by that point. Her life must have been one long, agonizing test of endurance. Read the comments on that vid - many people thought it was unfair to put her down. What did they think could have been done? No farrier could have set her right.

I really have little knowledge of hoof issues, have a gelding with a 6 degree coffin bone rotation from founder, We got him going sound again, but that is really my extent of my knowledge of lameness issues. I dont have speakers that work on my computer, so i will view it later today when i have access to a computer that does. I just dont know 'bout all that hoof stuff..

I do not even know what Tansy poisoning is, but i will look it up. I am sure the Vet you used thought there was hope for this gelding, or he would not have instructed you to do this tubing of the stomach, I am sure that you did what you could, you tried . You stepped out of your comfort zone, as stated when you said it was not easy, and you tried to save the animal.

I am disappointed in myself that I put him through that when it was not necessary. Shame. On. Me.

I do not think stomach tubing is that painful for an animal, i am not sure as i have never had this done to me, but the animals i have seen done, and i have done this on, do not seem in extreme pain, a little uncomfortable as the tube is inserted, but not in extreme pain..

The only reason you "failed" if because you tried! THERE IS NO SHAME IN TRYING. .

I do not consider what you did as failure, only outcome was not in your favor. , some animals that that seem soooo sick, somehow recover, even when there is very little hope, , and some that seem not really that bad off,take a turn for the worse, regardless of care. I do not understand why this happens,but i have seem it several times.

Therefor, i must ask my Vet as well as myself to try anything, and everything to preserve life. If there is any way possible to give life a chance, i am willing to give it a shot. I do not want any animal, or me for that matter, to go down without a fight! As long as they are alive there is something that can be done for them! . ,

If I ever have to deal with a horse with that diagnosis again, I will not fail him/her

sometimes diagnosis can be wrong, even by the best Vets, and medical Dr.'s, please give this consideration before making any life changing decisions.

 

[tagalong]

I do not think stomach tubing is that painful for an animal, i am not sure as i have never had this done to me, but the animals i have seen done, and i have done this on, do not seem in extreme pain, a little uncomfortable as the tube is inserted, but not in extreme pain..

I was not referring to the tubing causing him any pain (it didn't) - but the poisoning itself in the final hours. No, the vet did not think there was any chance and worried that the outcome would be horrific at the end - and he was right. There really was no hope - and I just prolonged the inevitable and made the ending much worse. And I will NEVER put a horse through that again should a similar situation arise (not likely to happen but never say never).

Nathan - I only ended up tubing him (the vet suggested it) as to have the vet come back 4 times a day was impractical - and I had done it before in specific situations. I made him check my technique out thoroughly and he was confident I would have no issues with the tubing - and I was very careful and did not have any problems. He supplied the tubing and syringe etc.

But in hindsight it would have been far better for that horse to have put him down when the diagnosis pointed out that he was on a one way street, slowly running downhill.

I did fail him - it was my job to care for him and make sure he was free of pain and safe and comfortable - and in the end, I could do none of that.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Wow... I'm quite shocked those vets taught you. They can be in a WORLD of trouble if something happened. I've palpated and ultrasounded through the university when I was teaching vet students and working on my MS, and after seeing what can go wrong, and how careful those instructors were, I'm very shocked. They were reluctant to teach me, and I never did do enough to be truly comfortable and competent. That takes months/years and hundreds of mares a month. I only did a few dozen.

He must have thought there was little liability, if he was willing to teach me. There are many many farms that do their own U/S, and several miniature horse farm breeders that i am aware of, do them. Several Mini horse dispersal sales have listed U/S in the auction, so i feel they did most likely use them on the animals. Tony Greaves at Little America, bought his from his Vet when his Vet updated, i talked with him at a sale one time "Eastern Classic i think, the one Ronnie Clifton put on years ago. That was when i was considering purchasing one. I am pretty sure Pacific pintos do their own as well, unless Joanne changed her program. She really has top of the line animals, top notch in my book. D'Armond minis did all their own as well. These are just a couple of mini farms that i can think of off the top of my head, i am sure there are many more Nathan.

Its just not cost effective to have a Vet do them, when you are doing 30-50 a year sometimes more. I have never had any problems with horses i have U/S. As long as you use reasonable precautions, it is really pretty simple.

Tubing can be deadly in the wrong hands. One oops, one forgetting to verify location, and you'll drown your horse in seconds. Or, cause a lingering death through aspiration pnumonia.

Oh I agree!!!!! Believe me i thought about that EVERY time i have done it!!!!

I used to use an aquaruim tube on my mini foals, and would tube about 4oz of colostrum when they were first born( because i was tired and it was usually the middle of the night when they were born and i wanted to go back home and go to sleep. I did it for years on over a hundred or more foals , and never had any problem with it. But on an adult animal with such a big tube it makes me a bit more nervous.

Anyone who gets so comfortable with these tasks that they forget how dangerous and deadly they are needs to take a step back and think about it for a while, and get a new respect for the VERY invasive procedures they are doing. One oops and you've taken a life, and NOT the humane, controlled way of euthanasia.

I whole heartedly agree with that statement!!!!I except with the euthanasia part, think about the consequences every time i do something,.

Flushes are pretty easy, if done ******lly. Not much different than AI. So I can KINDA see a vet showing someone how.

Is there another way of getting to the cervix to insert the pipet other than through the ******? I am pretty sure that the cervix is the only opening to the uterus through when a flush can be done? Nathan please explain the other method.

I have gone to a couple of (awesome) seminars that were put on the University of Colorado, it has been about 7 years ago,, and was held in Pinehurst NC., and was right before i bought my own U/S., They were assuming everyone that attended was already U/S and collecting stallions, and performing AI, everyone there was, except for me! It was expensive to attend, about 30 people were there, half Veterinarians, half barn managers.like myself., I was sitting beside a Veterinarian, when she ask a question (the same one i was thinking about and too afraid to ask) I looked over and said to her i was wondering about that too! She said i am sure we were not the only ones! That was when i learned that so many farms, and farm managers were already WAY ahead of me, and i better "bust a move" or i was gonna be eating their dust!

I think i will try learning embryo transfers next week!!! LOL!!!! just a joke !!!!

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Do you think that mare walking on the front of her coronary bands in that video was going to have quality of life? That was unfixable by that point. Her life must have been one long, agonizing test of endurance. Read the comments on that vid - many people thought it was unfair to put her down. What did they think could have been done? No farrier could have set her right.

Horrible! certainly did not look very promising, but again i am not a farrier, and really do not know that much about lameness. I do not understand how her back hooves even grew that way! they should have curled up, not under. I do not know enough to make a judgement in that case. I am sure it would have not been cost effective to try to feed and salvage that animal, but she was standing and walking, and if it were possible to have ask her if she wanted to live that way or die, i am not sure what her response would have been. Bad situation, glad the person at fault was "nailed."

I did fail him - it was my job to care for him and make sure he was free of pain and safe and comfortable - and in the end, I could do none of that.

No you did not!, you did what you thought was best in that moment, you gave it your best shot, you did everything for that life you could! You attempted to preserve life, and that is admirable by anyone's standards!

Life is not always free of pain, its not always safe, and is certainly not always comfortable, But life is always valuable! ALWAYS!

I will agree with you on the fact that life is more than just drawing breath. That is actually a quote by the big "E" (Elvis Pressley)

However there is no gentle death, and humane euthanasia does not exist, because if it were so humane (definition is)

characterized by kindness, mercy, sympathy, etc.

​

inflicting as little pain as possible,

​

we would be doing it to humans, as human life is more valuable than an animals, and last i heard euthanasia for humans, although advocated by some, is somewhat still frowned upon by most in the Health Care community.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Nathan-

Wow... I'm quite shocked those vets taught you. They can be in a WORLD of trouble if something happened.

I spoke with Dr. Shultz( the Vet who taught me) and he said that U/S was common knowledge, and as long as i was only doing my own animals, he did not see a problem, and that he does work for a couple of other farms that do their own as well.

Not having an Ultrasound machine at a breeding farm, is kinda like having a kitchen with no stove, yes its possible but not very convenient.

 

[Minimor]

However there is no gentle death, and humane euthanasia does not exist, because if it were so humane (definition is) characterized by kindness, mercy, sympathy, etc.

inflicting as little pain as possible, we would be doing it to humans, as human life is more valuable than an animals, and last i heard euthanasia for humans, although advocated by some, is somewhat still frowned upon by most in the Health Care community.

I believe that in actual fact there are other reasons why euthanasia for people is not an acceptable thing. In people the reasons are nothing to do with whether or not euthanasia is kind/ merciful/etc.

 

[Minimor]

Sorry, had to make two posts--easier that editing the first one!

Do you not ever believe in euthanasia for your horses or other animals? no matter what is wrong you just "keep trying" until the animal is gone, however long that may take or however much the animal may suffer before it dies?

So a horse is ripped up by a pack of dogs or a bear....or it's been hit by a car & has its pelvis shattered...or the dystocia is so bad that the foal absolutely isn't coming out and when the vet tries to cut the dead foal into pieces the mare gets torn up worse--her uterous is ruptured or her intestines are coming out with the foal--you still wouldn't call it beyond hope and request euthanasia?

Allowing an animal to suffer beyond a certain point is incomprehensible to me. Incomprehensible and inexcusable.

Tagalong--I know exactly what you mean, about failing the animal by trying too long to save it. There has been a time or two when I have wished that I had made that final decision a little bit sooner than I did. What is that saying? Something to the effect of "better an hour too soon than a moment too late" ? I agree completely.