Internal scanning of pregnant mares

[Nathan Luszcz]

inhumane euthanasia is an oxymoron, given the definition of euthanasia is "a good death".

Human euthanasia is illegal, not necessarily immoral. That is a debate suited to another forum.

Yes, you can do a uterine flush via the rectal route (of course the tube is inserted ******lly). That is invasive, the layman's intravaginal version is not.

There are plenty of farms that do their own ultrasounding. They do tons, and they accept that they will loose a few. They also have full time staff who do it all the time, and vets on standby. In the state of Texas, it is legal to palpate any horse, as long as you don't charge for it. None of this changes the fact its an invasive procedure, or that it is without significant risk. Its best left to the professionals, who receive in depth training, and (most importantly) can address and handle the consequences if something goes wrong. A single afternoon is NOT enough training.

 

[tagalong]

I used to use an aquaruim tube on my mini foals, and would tube about 4oz of colostrum when they were first born( because i was tired and it was usually the middle of the night when they were born and i wanted to go back home and go to sleep.

I have to disagree with that practice.

I would not want to tube a newborn. Why put them through that just for convenience? I milk the mare out a bit and use a 3 cc syringe to carefully feed the foal small amounts while it sucks on my gloved finger. No tubing needed. And no, I do not tip their heads back and they have never aspirated anything. That way I know they have had a jump start and have some gas in the tank to get on with nursing, pooping, peeing etc. Tubing them seems a bit invasive and unnecessary.

I have worked on a variety of farms and foaled out different breeds... and I have never seen anyone - even at the state of the art Thoroughbred farm where some babies were worth $100,000 the minute they hit the ground - tube foals as part of standard operating procedure. Unless they were unable to nurse or had major health issues....

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Do you not ever believe in euthanasia for your horses or other animals? no matter what is wrong you just "keep trying" until the animal is gone, however long that may take or however much the animal may suffer before it dies?

Minimoor I have given it much thought since this thread started. intestines coming out with the foal, that is never survivable, yes bullet to the head (not the shot)

Once any vet knows the Uterus is torn , they always will stop trying to salvage anything at that point, its futile.

So a horse is ripped up by a pack of dogs or a bear....

really depends on the severity of attack, most likely if the attack was that bad, i would not have to make that decision, it would happen rather quickly if they were loosing that much blood. If they were not bleeding to death (which would take only minutes), i would opt for stitches and antibiotics to attempt to salvage life.

.or it's been hit by a car & has its pelvis shattered.

Of course a bullet to the head(not the shot)I guess what i am saying is something obvious, such as you described in these scenarios, broken pelvis, torn uterus, absolutely no possibility of survival, and pretty much these things would resolve fairly quickly on their own anyway, but yes a bullet to the head would be acceptable to me.

But Minimoor if there is the slimmest chance no matter how far fetched it is, even the most faint of hope, i will decide to treat, and give life a chance.

Allowing an animal to suffer beyond a certain point is incomprehensible to me. Incomprehensible and inexcusable.

I understand this statement, however my "certain point" and your "certain point" can be extremely different. What you consider inexcusable and i consider inexcusable may not be the same either, so....... who is right me or you???? Maybe we are both right, maybe we are both wrong.

Again, If the Vet thought anything they could try would give the slightest hope of life, please try it, no matter how far fetched, or how hopeless the situation seemed. I never want one of my animals (or myself for that matter) to go down without a fight!

 

[lil hoofbeats]

I have worked on a variety of farms and foaled out different breeds... and I have never seen anyone - even at the state of the art Thoroughbred farm where some babies were worth $100,000 the minute they hit the ground - tube foals as part of standard operating procedure. Unless they were unable to nurse or had major health issues....

I stopped doing it this year, but i did it with good success for years on hundreds of foals, no problems encountered, I also used to wash the mare in anti bacterial soap before she gave birth, but i stopped doing that too,, guess i am getting lazy in my old age.

I have been spoke with a farm in Ky that does it on their foals, but they tube a colostrum supplement, and some of the mares colostrum as well, they try to get it done before the foal even stands. They also wash the mare immediately after she foals in antibacterial soap, and plenty of water, they do this before the foal trys to find the udder, they say it cuts down of septicemia, most likely it does, but is not feasible for me since i am the only one working at my farm.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Nathan

Yes, you can do a uterine flush via the rectal route

but how does the flush fluid get into the uterus???

 

[Sandy B]

I know of a vet in Southern California that offers multiple courses for everything to do with breeding, from Mare & Stallion Management, to ultrasounds, to embryo transfers. It features classroom and lab sessions then hands on. You can check it out here at www.thebreedersassistant.com

 

[Wings]

The last horse I put down was my beautiful and well loved 23 year old TB. I found him in the morning exhausted and in pain from colic. But he got to his feet when I asked and there was life in his eyes. My vet and I fought for that horse for as long as he would fight.

In the end we were faced with a 5 to 10% chances of surviving the surgery (at best) and we could both tell he wanted to go. The life was gone and his body was on the way out.

Should I have forced that horse onto a float and have him possibly die on the way or in a strange place? Or on the operating table?

When we fight for these animals we should be fighting for THEM and not ourselves. As long as that horse would fight my vet and I were there to help. But when it was time to let him go we were brave enough to let him. It is what we owe them.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

The last horse I put down was my beautiful and well loved 23 year old TB. I found him in the morning exhausted and in pain from colic. But he got to his feet when I asked and there was life in his eyes. My vet and I fought for that horse for as long as he would fight.

In the end we were faced with a 5 to 10% chances of surviving the surgery (at best) and we could both tell he wanted to go. The life was gone and his body was on the way out.

Should I have forced that horse onto a float and have him possibly die on the way or in a strange place? Or on the operating table?

When we fight for these animals we should be fighting for THEM and not ourselves. As long as that horse would fight my vet and I were there to help. But when it was time to let him go we were brave enough to let him. It is what we owe them.

This^^^^. My Arabian colicked badly. The vet examined him, and determined she couldn't do anything for him. This was a lady who would fight tooth and nail if you asked her. We could take him to Ohio State- a three and a half hour trailer ride. He didn't like trailering on a good day, let alone one when he was in agony. I have never seen an animal in such pain. And the look on his face..... "Mom, make it go away..."

And we did. he passed peacefully, surrounded by the people he loved.

Could I have gone further? Yes, but at his expense. He was already checking out, I could see it. Why end his last hours with such horror. It was for HIS sake I let him go, not mine. It would have been incredibly selfish to take him to the university. He was my first horse and I loved him more than almost anything in the world.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Nathan

but how does the flush fluid get into the uterus???

Read the whole sentince...

"Yes, you can do a uterine flush via the rectal route (of course the tube is inserted ******lly). That is invasive, the layman's intravaginal version is not."

Normally the tube is inserted ******lly, the balloon inflated, then the hand removed and inserted rectally. Fluids are run through, uterous is massaged, then emptied (via the rectal hand). Then the balloon deflated.

That is how a flush is normally done. A layman can do it only through the ******l route, but it is not as good. The whole point of flushing is to remove debris and fluids. If you leave fluid in, as is normal with a ******l-only method, you haven't improved the situation as much as you could by removing all the fluid (via trans-rectal massage)

 

[lil hoofbeats]

That is how a flush is normally done. A layman can do it only through the ******l route, but it is not as good. The whole point of flushing is to remove debris and fluids. If you leave fluid in, as is normal with a ******l-only method, you haven't improved the situation as much as you could by removing all the fluid (via trans-rectal massage)

I did not know this, I never seen it done that way., I have never seen Dr.Blackwelder, or his son Travis who is usually the one in the office as his Dad is semi retired now, or Dr. Shultz do it that way, they always did it the way i do it, They clean the mares back end area off, use a sterile glove, and and cup there fingers around the ppet and insert their cupped hand and with the middle finger find the cervix and then run the pipet right under the middle finger that is sticking slightly into the cervix, about an inch or two past the middle finger, depress the plunger, and if it does not flow easily, back it up a smidge, as you are against the uterine wall, and push the flush fluid in through the pipet the fluid usually consist of 120 cc of sterile water, mixed with about 5-10 cc of penn, and i always use Amikacin about 2 cc (Gentamycin if I dont happen to have any Amikacin , and i am feeling cheap.) I will after that, withdraw the pipet, but i try to hold the cervix closed for about a minute or so, so the fluid stays in longer. There is always some backwash of the mixture afterwards. Dr. Black welder said the antibiotic sort of adhered to the uterine wall and was active for about 48 hours, and (sterile water) also would irritate the lining so new cells would form, something i think he said nutriphils, i do not even know how to spell that word, and that may have NOT been the right term for those new cells.

The way you described makes sense, and i will ask both of them why they do not do it the way you described..

The way i have been doing seems to be very effective, and i have had great success with mares that other people considered non breeders. But again, Nathan, if there is a better way, then i want to know about it, EXCELLENCE--Nothing less ! . .

 

[lil hoofbeats]

know of a vet in Southern California that offers multiple courses for everything to do with breeding, from Mare & Stallion Management, to ultrasounds, to embryo transfers. It features classroom and lab sessions then hands on. You can check it out here at www.thebreedersassistant.com

OMG ! That is very similar to the one i took in Pinehurst, The one i took was talking embryo transfers like it was no biggie either, I guess barn managers are really do embryo transfers with an 82% success rate!!!!! They are now doing non surgical transfers!!!! When did this happen??

I was just joking about learning to do embryo transfers, but, hey..... it might not be out of the question!

Apparently other non Vets are routinly doing it now! And there is a Vet willing to show them how!!!! I am familiar with AI and cooled/ frozen semen, and i am certainly familiar with an U/S,. Price for the workshop is good! I think i paid around 750.0 for the one i took, it was 5 days.

They are teaching equine U/S , embryo transfers, and flushing!!!!! And a bunch of other amazing stuff too!!!!!!

Nathan. you said my Vet could get in trouble teaching me how to U/S and flush, this Vet is not only willing to teach these things, but a bunch of other "invasive" procedures as well! and advertises that he will do it! You do not have to be a Vet to take these courses, You only need to have previous breeding experience(which i have plenty of) and I am already doing some of these things. Shame on you for saying that i am not competent enough to be doing these things, I have done them, and I have been successful! In the future i will become even better at it! I am going to learn new things new ways of doing them, and strive to be the best i can be at equine reproduction management. Nathan- other people are doing it, and i can too! I am capable, i will learn, and i will succeed!

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

I did not know this, I never seen it done that way., I have never seen Dr.Blackwelder, or his son Travis who is usually the one in the office as his Dad is semi retired now, or Dr. Shultz do it that way, they always did it the way i do it, They clean the mares back end area off, use a sterile glove, and and cup there fingers around the ppet and insert their cupped hand and with the middle finger find the cervix and then run the pipet right under the middle finger that is sticking slightly into the cervix, about an inch or two past the middle finger, depress the plunger, and if it does not flow easily, back it up a smidge, as you are against the uterine wall, and push the flush fluid in through the pipet the fluid usually consist of 120 cc of sterile water, mixed with about 5-10 cc of penn, and i always use Amikacin about 2 cc (Gentamycin if I dont happen to have any Amikacin , and i am feeling cheap.) I will after that, withdraw the pipet, but i try to hold the cervix closed for about a minute or so, so the fluid stays in longer. There is always some backwash of the mixture afterwards. Dr. Black welder said the antibiotic sort of adhered to the uterine wall and was active for about 48 hours, and (sterile water) also would irritate the lining so new cells would form, something i think he said nutriphils, i do not even know how to spell that word, and that may have NOT been the right term for those new cells.

The way you described makes sense, and i will ask both of them why they do not do it the way you described..

The way i have been doing seems to be very effective, and i have had great success with mares that other people considered non breeders. But again, Nathan, if there is a better way, then i want to know about it, EXCELLENCE--Nothing less ! . .

That's not a flush, that's an infusion. Same thing as artificial insemination. Totally different purpose.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

OMG ! That is very similar to the one i took in Pinehurst, The one i took was talking embryo transfers like it was no biggie either, I guess barn managers are really do embryo transfers with an 82% success rate!!!!! They are now doing non surgical transfers!!!! When did this happen??

I was just joking about learning to do embryo transfers, but, hey..... it might not be out of the question!

Apparently other non Vets are routinly doing it now! And there is a Vet willing to show them how!!!! I am familiar with AI and cooled/ frozen semen, and i am certainly familiar with an U/S,. Price for the workshop is good! I think i paid around 750.0 for the one i took, it was 5 days.

They are teaching equine U/S , embryo transfers, and flushing!!!!! And a bunch of other amazing stuff too!!!!!!

Nathan. you said my Vet could get in trouble teaching me how to U/S and flush, this Vet is not only willing to teach these things, but a bunch of other "invasive" procedures as well! and advertises that he will do it! You do not have to be a Vet to take these courses, You only need to have previous breeding experience(which i have plenty of) and I am already doing some of these things. Shame on you for saying that i am not competent enough to be doing these things, I have done them, and I have been successful! In the future i will become even better at it! I am going to learn new things new ways of doing them, and strive to be the best i can be at equine reproduction management. Nathan- other people are doing it, and i can too! I am capable, i will learn, and i will succeed!

Some people will do anything to earn a buck. That does NOT make it right, or okay. I just hope you only risk your own horses with this, and not other people's.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Some people will do anything to earn a buck. That does NOT make it right, or okay. I just hope you only risk your own horses with this, and not other people's.

I only work on my horses, even if i was willing to do someone elses, i would never have the time! I am running my farm at full capacity, with diligence and most importantly SUCCESS!

I had 34 breeding age mares last year, 32 US if foal , 30 live foals, 29 reached sell able age. Ask any Veterinarian, or professional equine breeder ( of any breed) what they think of those stats. I must be do'in someth'in right!!!

I think what these seminars are teaching is wonderful, educational, and 100% legal and right, and it cost a whole lot more than just a buck.

That's not a flush, that's an infusion. Same thing as artificial insemination. Totally different purpose.

Veterinarians around these parts call it a flush, and it seems to be very effective at getting problem mares in foal, but again, i just kinda go with what works.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

When you flush out a bottle of milk before putting it in the recycling, do you put a bunch of stuff in it, then throw it in the bin? Or do you put some water in, rinse it around, and empty it out?

 

[lil hoofbeats]

When you flush out a bottle of milk before putting it in the recycling, do you put a bunch of stuff in it, then throw it in the bin? Or do you put some water in, rinse it around, and empty it out?

As previously stated, , i get your point, which is why i am waiting on a call from the two Vets. But i will state again, the flush my Vets use, which is the one i use IS effective. It does work. There is quite a bit of fluid that does come back out.with the flush i use. Some mares do have a problem clearing after breeding. which is why sometimes it is good to flush them right after they finish the breeding cycle, This has not been the problem with most of the sub fertile mares i have tried getting in foal. Usually it is some sort of infection, most likely strep, as it accounts for about 80% of all uterine infections in mares.

120 cc of sterile water, 5-10cc of Penn, and 2cc of Amikacin, seems to work like a charm. IF there is a more effective way, i will do it.

 

[albahurst]

Llil Hoofbeats- My equine vet uses a flush that is awesome! An equine repro specialist in TX developed this particular flush mix and taught it to my vet some years ago. A bit different than yours, so if you want to know what we have used, please PM me.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

You are missing my point... its an apple and an orange. Sometimes you need an orange, sometimes you need an apple. But when you're describing a red crisp fruit, its an apple, not an orange. I'm doing more harm than good here... now you are doing MORE stuff that I feel you shouldn't. So I'm not going to be saying anything more about procedures layman shouldn't be doing, cuz you're just adding them to your repatoir!

 

[lil hoofbeats]

I did talk with the Vet he said, that with the amount of fluid i am putting in, there would be enough coming out to help clear the debris, if there was any there. He said about 1/2 a cc of oxytocin would clear the fluid better than trying to squeeze it out with your hand. He said he wanted that antibiotic to stay in there and cover the lining of the uterus.

He also stated, that if a mare was having a problem clearing debris after being covered, that a shot of oxytocin 1/2 cc about 4 hours after covering her would help with this because after 4 hours, the semen should already be in the tubes where conception takes place.

He also stated to not cover her, or AI her more than one time in any 48 hour period because after she is covered, there is an inflammatory response that happens in her uterus.

The mares uterus sees the semen as a foreign material, and sends out special cells to try to get rid of it thus creating debris, an easily understandable example of this same type response, would be what happens when you get a splinter, it becomes red and irritated because your body is trying to get rid of it!

Lil Hoofbeats Farm is operating at full capacity, and showing a profit. If i called a Vet to come out everytime i needed an U/S or a flush, or colostrum tubed to a foal, or IV fluid run, i would go broke, my farm would fail, and i would no longer be in business, (just like many other farms that have dispersed)

What sets me apart from farms that have gone under, is my ability to learn new things, diligence, and an ability to perform correctly what i have been taught. By doing this, i will stay afloat in this time of economic crunch. Its just the way i roll!

Nathan, layman are doing these procedures safely, effectively and with great success, U/S flushing, tubing, and now apparently embryo transfer are common practice by equine reproduction managers.

I hope to continue to add to my repatoir , as i hope everyone on this forum does!

Remember you are the only one that sets your limits. These procedures can be safely performed by you. If you choose to learn, the education is available, and there are people ( and Veterinarians) willing to help you every step of the way.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Tagalong, and Minimoor, i guess with a uterine tear, or an obvious broken bone, ( but it would have to be something causing extreme pain and completely no chance of putting it back together again such as intestines coming out, or a bone sticking out) I would have the animal killed, with a bullet to the brain performed only by my Father. I would have to know the person performing this final act has compassion, and understands fully the value of life.

Tagalong,serimmune that is the colostrum supplement they use, they say it cost around 100.00 bucks or so, they swear by it and say they tube it to every foal and have been for the past 5 years!

Life is not always free of pain, its not always safe, and is certainly not always comfortable, But life is always valuable! And should be given great respect.