Internal scanning of pregnant mares

[Sandy B]

MANY large breeding farms (large horse) handle almost all their own reproduction needs. I can say of those 50% do their own US, the remainder do have their vets US. Many more are learning to do it themselves though. While I am on the fence about do it yourself US, I know for a fact that many once taught would be pretty good at it. I do also believe that some people are much more natural at learning such vet skills. I can tell you that you can not ultrasound 5 horses a year and call yourself an expert. It takes 100's of horses and many years to get really good. There is always a risk of doing US on ANY horse and common sense and knowing the horse personally lowers the risk IMO. I have seen well known breeding vets US mares like they were going in to grab a red bag foal (although rectally). There was no gentleness about it. It was crud and an assembly line affect as if it were a timed event. To me this is worse that an owner cautiously and gently inch by inch (as most do it yourselfers do) US their own mares. And IMO.... NO ONE should be allowed to US any horse but their own, unless you are a vet.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Having worked WITH and FOR a large number of large breeding farms, I can say that NONE of them did their own US/palpations. They did a LOT of their own work, but NOT traditional vet tasks. And having interviewed for many more dozen large breeding farm positions as breeding manager, ONE of them did their own palpations. So one out of 50+ in a cross-country field, doesn't really add up to half, in my experience.

As far as the colostrum, I've seen it used before, and NONE of the people who were doing it had ANYTHING good to say about it. Usually its a last ditch effort, can't afford the correct treatment. Never seen a farm routinely use it, mostly because its almost useless. Those who give every foal a boost, give that boost with IV plasma, not oral solutions. THAT is done on lots of farms. But its $500+ per treatment, so its only the farms that can afford that. But none that I know of, here in Lou/Lexington KY, horse and thoroughbred capital of the world, do anything but plasma. Including the two TB farms I personal work at.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Remember you are the only one that sets your limits. These procedures can be safely performed by you. If you choose to learn, the education is available, and there are people ( and Veterinarians) willing to help you every step of the way.

Yes, I know exactly what your vet is saying. I know what an infusion is and why its done. And no, there are not a huge number of people or vets who are willing to teach this, there is a very small minority (for the reasons I've stated again and again). No vet near me, and there are hundreds, would teach these things to someone they didn't DEEPLY trust. Like I said, there are a few vets out there that will do anything to make a buck, and if that means violating the community opinion, and state law in some cases, they will.

I choose to learn, that's why I have an MS in reproductive phys from one of the top repro schools in the country. I can and do many of the procedures mentioned, including the rare ET. I, however, believe (as does the school I went to) that these things are NOT to be preformed by the general public, without specific, in depth, education in not only the procedure, but everything that is effected by what you are doing. I spent 18 months learning physiology and all about the inflammatory response you are talking about. There is a reason hospitals are starting to not hire RN's anymore, and are heading to BSN or MSN prepared RN's instead. Certification is no longer the standard... more in-depth education is the requirement. Same for horses, in my opinion.

 

[Sandy B]

MANY large breeding farms (large horse) handle almost all their own reproduction needs. I can say of those 50% do their own US, the remainder do have their vets US. Many more are learning to do it themselves though. While I am on the fence about do it yourself US, I know for a fact that many once taught would be pretty good at it. I do also believe that some people are much more natural at learning such vet skills. I can tell you that you can not ultrasound 5 horses a year and call yourself an expert. It takes 100's of horses and many years to get really good. There is always a risk of doing US on ANY horse and common sense and knowing the horse personally lowers the risk IMO. I have seen well known breeding vets US mares like they were going in to grab a red bag foal (although rectally). There was no gentleness about it. It was crud and an assembly line affect as if it were a timed event. To me this is worse that an owner cautiously and gently inch by inch (as most do it yourselfers do) US their own mares. And IMO.... NO ONE should be allowed to US any horse but their own, unless you are a vet.

Perhaps I should clarify my statement about a "large number of breeding farms"- what I meant to say is a large number of private breeding farms. It is not like a breeding manager US customers horses. I am not sure that is legal to do unless given permission and nothing is charged.

Having worked WITH and FOR a large number of large breeding farms, I can say that NONE of them did their own US/palpations. They did a LOT of their own work, but NOT traditional vet tasks. And having interviewed for many more dozen large breeding farm positions as breeding manager, ONE of them did their own palpations. So one out of 50+ in a cross-country field, doesn't really add up to half, in my experience.

This is "your" experience Nathan and mine is mine.

As far as the colostrum, I've seen it used before, and NONE of the people who were doing it had ANYTHING good to say about it. Usually its a last ditch effort, can't afford the correct treatment. Never seen a farm routinely use it, mostly because its almost useless. Those who give every foal a boost, give that boost with IV plasma, not oral solutions. THAT is done on lots of farms. But its $500+ per treatment, so its only the farms that can afford that. But none that I know of, here in Lou/Lexington KY, horse and thoroughbred capital of the world, do anything but plasma. Including the two TB farms I personal work at.

I agree (gasp) that if a mare has poor colostrum, most places do plasma and not give a oral colostrum treatment. Most of the time an IgG is not going to be high enough with any oral supplement and plasma is needed any ways. Many of the larger breeding farms routinely administer plasma regardless of IgG levels. I personally do not do it with my foals unless IgG is borderline or lower. No matter what state you live in plasma transfusions are pricy, but $500 is at the top of the scale for a single transfusion in my experience.

Yes, I know exactly what your vet is saying. I know what an infusion is and why its done. And no, there are not a huge number of people or vets who are willing to teach this, there is a very small minority (for the reasons I've stated again and again). No vet near me, and there are hundreds, would teach these things to someone they didn't DEEPLY trust. Like I said, there are a few vets out there that will do anything to make a buck, and if that means violating the community opinion, and state law in some cases, they will.

I choose to learn, that's why I have an MS in reproductive phys from one of the top repro schools in the country. I can and do many of the procedures mentioned, including the rare ET. I, however, believe (as does the school I went to) that these things are NOT to be preformed by the general public, without specific, in depth, education in not only the procedure, but everything that is effected by what you are doing. I spent 18 months learning physiology and all about the inflammatory response you are talking about. There is a reason hospitals are starting to not hire RN's anymore, and are heading to BSN or MSN prepared RN's instead. Certification is no longer the standard... more in-depth education is the requirement. Same for horses, in my opinion.

Kudos for you and your education, but nothing teaches you like years and years of handling all aspects of a breeding farm. Many vets will tell you that breeding farm managers have more hands on experience than they do in every aspect when it comes to breeding, foaling and repro care, because the breeding manager lives it daily, 24/7, and most vets do not. Yes, while there are some repro vets that only do repro and foals, the majority do not. I am lucky as I have worked under many great repro vets myself, but I am not a college educated repro specialist like you Nathan. My experience comes from years of life on the farm and many, many wonderful vets that have taken the time to educate me and teach me (yes teach me) all sorts of great things. My vets love that I can handle some basic treatments and know that they are the first ones I call on with questions or concerns. I do know my own limitations and thats what makes the difference. But I believe knowledge is power and I will never cease learning all that I can from some great vets and am grateful for their willingness to teach and share their experiences.

I am not sure where you get your RN information, but your statement does not apply to every state. I have many, many friends that are LVN to RN's and my closest friends are both RN's at a large hospital here in Cali. One is a administrator/teacher and she just said that the shortage of RN's is sad and that your statement definitely does not apply to every state or hospital.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

And no, there are not a huge number of people or vets who are willing to teach this, there is a very small minority (for the reasons I've stated again and again).

Aint so!

google Equine reproductive seminars.

There is a bunch of 'em willing to share the knowledge.!

And 'round here RN's are able to get a job about anywhere. The hospitals are begging for them.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

People say that, but when it comes to actually hiring, its a different story. And RN's without a BSN are being phased out. Around here (KY, IL, OH, etc) major hospitals won't hire "plain" RN's.

Like I said, some people will teach anything to earn a buck. Considering the number of people who WON'T teach you, the few seminars are in the vast, vast minority. Thankfully. Oh, and I'm pushing 10 years of managing breeding operations, so I'm no newbie

 

[Sandy B]

People say that, but when it comes to actually hiring, its a different story. And RN's without a BSN are being phased out. Around here (KY, IL, OH, etc) major hospitals won't hire "plain" RN's.

Like I said, some people will teach anything to earn a buck. Considering the number of people who WON'T teach you, the few seminars are in the vast, vast minority. Thankfully. Oh, and I'm pushing 10 years of managing breeding operations, so I'm no newbie

Nathan, how do you know RN's without a BSN are being phased out? Are you a BSN too or involved in hospitals?

I can say you have given some sound advise over the years on here but I think you are out of line to judge a vet or teaching hospital that hold seminars that teach equine reproduction (on many different levels) as "some people will teach anything to earn a buck". And there are MANY seminars not "a few". I am fine with your opinion and personal thoughts, but please don't act like you know the whole industry because you don't. While I may not always agree with the way people handle themselves and their facilities, it is their prerogative to do as they wish. And I give kudos to those who do handle their own breeding management and those that are always willing to learn and those that know their own limitations.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

People say that, but when it comes to actually hiring, its a different story. And RN's without a BSN are being phased out. Around here (KY, IL, OH, etc) major hospitals won't hire "plain" RN's.

My boyfriend is the Director of Medicine at Broughton Hospital In Morganton NC> they have several RN positions available, and no one to fill them, so any Rn's that live near you that are willing to relocate, they are hiring them there and at the Blue Ridge Health Care facility's as well, they cant find enough of Rn's around here to fill all the needed positions.

I have learned quite a but from this thread, New type of flush that, Albahurst was kind enough to tell me about , learned about oxytocin after breeding, learned that there is embryo transfer being done non surgically, by barn managers. Learned that Nathan thinks serimmune is just a bunch of "fluff", i have never used it so maybe it is. Learned that in a few circumstances , yes i may choose to kill an animal. Things that make you go Hmmm...

.

Oh, and I'm pushing 10 years of managing breeding operations, so I'm no newbie

I have been performing equine reproduction management since 1997, so i have been around the block a few times myself! I am just amazed what i can do when i have to!

With your experience if equine breeding management, then i am sure the stats at my farm, under my management,last year made quite an impression on you. Those were not an accident, it was because of knowledge, diligence and perseverance. I am not always that blessed, but i have always done much better than the odds said i should..And that is what tells me,this 'ole gal must be gett'in someth'in right!

I have learned in the equine business, adapt or get out!

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Yes I'm a BSN/RN. Kentucky holds two of the 30 level 3 trauma centers in the country. RN's are still in demand, but bigger hospitals require more these days. Many of the local facilities don't hire regular RN's. But there are schools here who still turn out certified RN's; they haven't gone out of business yet. Its the industry trend. Magnet hospitals require BSN as entry level.

 

[tagalong]

Learned that in a few circumstances , yes i may choose to kill an animal.

*ponders*

I find your terminology... well, I was going to say "interesting" but that may be the wrong word. You say KILL. I would say put down... or euthed.. or euthanized. Whatever my words, the act is done with compassion."Kill" does not relay that to me. It sounds cold and detached. IMO there is feeling behind some words and a business as usual sense behind the other. I trust that was not your intended meaning...

My stats would be the same or better than yours over the years, lil hoofbeats. We do not churn out over 30 foals a year here - so I would have to use a few years together or look back when I worked on the TB farm and the WB/Standardbred/Arabian farm for bigger numbers.

And I have those impressive stats without always tubing foals (which as I said, I view as a stressful thing that is not necessary unless foal is not nursing and debilitated)) or doing anything invasive, using vets for U/S and IgG tests, palpating under vet supervision when needed (I have small hands) etc. Just using basic equine reproductive physiology knowledge and experience (although I did get an A+ in ERPh back in school) and sound breeding management.

This post may be hard to decipher - I do not have my reading glasses at hand so I have to squint and am not sure that my typing is very accurate...

This thread has started to sound like an equine reproduction infomercial...

 

[lil hoofbeats]

This thread has started to sound like an equine reproduction infomercial...

Well.....this is the one thing we both agree on!

 

[vickie gee]

Back to the original post about ultrasounding. There is not a vet around here that will ultrasound a mini. They do not have the proper equipment and are quick to let you know that. I have one two hours away that will and I trust him totally. The only reason I have ever asked him to is because I was there for with an animal for a different reason and just let suspected in foal mare go along for the ride. I know of a couple of mini owners that have their own equipment and if you have a lot of horses that would be the way to go imho.

There has been much said on this thread about vets. I will say from personal experience with Texas A & M University that my foal and mare received the utmost best of care and that the charges were I believe way below what I would have been charged at a privately owned office.

I have a couple of "good vets" here locally that I call on for routine stuff but for the more complicated I will make the two hour trip to the birthing facility/vet in Winnsboro who is actually good friends with the vet at A& M that did my foal's surgery. And sadly there is a vet here in town that I would not allow to see any animal of mine after he let my first mare in foal suffer with dystocia and telling us to just let nature take its course. I thank God for the vet that was willing to come out and quicklly put us on the road to the c-section that saved the mare's life.

 

[valshingle]

Vickie - If you are anywhere near Burleson, TX, there are two outstanding vets there. One has done all my miniature ultrasounds, with complete accuracy and complete safety. She has very small hands and the equipment necessary to do miniature ultrasounds.

I decided several years ago to breed less and give my mares the best possible care. Yes, I could breed more and have more foals, but this is the choice I made. So, they all foal out at the vet's - unless they give us an early 'surprise'. I do have the FoalAlert system and cameras, but when I feel the mares are close to foaling then I take them to the vet. She monitors both mom and baby afterwards and lavages the mare afterwards if she feels it's indicated. Yes, this is an expensive way to breed, but the safety of mare and baby are my primary concern. So, if that means I breed fewer horses - that's fine with me.

 

[vickie gee]

Val, I am not near there but that is good to know. I am way up in the ArkLaTex corner. By the way, my in-laws reside in Granbury.