AMHR Stud Book

[LaVern]

i think that your feelings would be the ones that the majority of AMHR would also believe, Alpha. But I think this stuff is good to talk about. I would rather things stay the way they are then have something rammed through too fast. But I do think that some day it will come.

The only thing I am strongly in favor in the near future is DNAing to be hard shipped into AMHR horses. AMHA does that and no one complains. The other will come someday,maybe.

 

[Minimor]

i think that your feelings would be the ones that the majority of AMHR would also believe, Alpha. But I think this stuff is good to talk about. I would rather things stay the way they are then have something rammed through too fast. But I do think that some day it will come.

The only thing I am strongly in favor in the near future is DNAing to be hard shipped into AMHR horses. AMHA does that and no one complains. The other will come someday,maybe.

I have to point out that AMHA also has a DNA program going otherwise, so it is not only the hardshipped horses that end up having to have DNA done. AMHA also does not require that those hardshipped horses be PQ'd.

Until AMHR has a general DNA program in place I don't believe that they can or should require that any hardshipped horses be DNA'd before they are given AMHR papers. it's pointless.

And if you are suggesting that the AMHA horses or ASPC ponies may not really be who they are supposed to be, well, why would anyone question those when they don't question that any AMHR horses are who they are supposed to be? Are you suggesting that AMHR breeders are more honest than AMHA or ASPC breeders????

 

[~Lisa~]

I think we would all be (well ok not all but many) would be surprised at how many behind the barn breedings their are still in both AMHR and ASPC- AMHA had the same issue and DNA and PQ is while not fullproof a help in stopping those issues.

Until we get our paperwork straightened out and truly can say horse A is really the horse that goes with horse A it is silly to get so worked up about letting grade horses in the registry. There are grade or non AMHR or ASPC horses being used in breeding programs

Personally my feelings are when it comes to hardshipping it needs to be yes or no- we allow anything in that meets the height or we allow nothing in without having AMHR papers on both parents.

 

[LaVern]

Lisa I disagree so strongly with you on this one that I bet I won't sleep tonight. If they do let the grade geldings in, they will not get many more boys registered with me. I will pull the hair on all of them label it and put it in the freezer and boy if I ever see one of those boys in the show ring I will cause a stink. I will hold the ones I think might make studs- not many- until they are older to register. And the heck with Futurity. No big deal for 20 -30 head a year, but I will do all I can to discourage all I know not to bother either.

About the DNA ing thing, was talking it over with our youngest daughter and she told me not to get my underwear in bundle as soon the states or government will require DNa ing for crossing state lines anyway. I think she just said that to make me mad, but I know that more and more identification is becoming a hot topic with some breeds of animals.

And I do realize that things are changing so fast.

 

[~Lisa~]

I am not saying I agree with the 50 buck hardship propsoal so no worries there I also do not put tons of stock in the actual pedigree on many AMHR or ASPC papers

So make sure and get some sleep lol do not let this keep you up all night- all any of us can do is voice our opinions, vote when we can and let the chips fall where they may

I am all for implementing DNA and PQ in both ASPC and AMHR although I am very aware the easiest time for anyone to cheat.. is right at the beginning of a new DNA or PQ program

 

[JMS Miniatures]

What is the difference between AMHR and ASPC? They are different. ASPC is a breed and has its own studbook. AMHR is a height registry and has its own studbook. No one can get into ASPC without having 2 registered ASPC parents. No one can get into AMHR without having 2 registered AMHR parents unless they meet the height standard and are registered in AMHA, ASPC, and Fabella. ASPC has its own Futurity program, its own Sweepstakes, and its own National show. AMHR has its own Futurity program, its own Sweepstakes, and its own National show.

If you don't see the difference then why are we continuing to separate them? We might as well combine the National show, the studbook and IMO doesn't make ASPC a breed anymore, and just combine it as 1 big height registry. Your a miniature if your 38" and under, any taller then that your considered a shetland. Thats just the way I see it.

So yes they need to be seperated, you need to do seperate paperwork and yes you need to hardship into AMHR if your ASPC. Cause as long as AMHR isn't opened to everybody you have to have ASPC papers and thats considered hardship. If anything maybe double the registration fees or something.

 

[Minimor]

LaVern, is that really the way to handle it? If you don't register your colts and sell them off (cheap or not) without any papers and without them ever having been registered, then they are to all intents and purposes "grade" horses, be they geldings or stallions. If AMHR starts allowing grade geldings to be hardshipped in and somewhere down the road the owner of one of those grade colts you sold (whether it is the person you sold it to or someone that it was sold on to after that initial sale) decided to hardship that gelding of theirs into AMHR, quite frankly I don't think there's a thing you could do about it, no matter how much hair you may have stored in your freezer. Where is the problem? The owner has no papers, the horse never had any papers, as a grade gelding it would be eligible to be hardshipped. What are you going to do? Say that you never sold the horse and the DNA results from testing that hair out of your freezer proves that the hardshipped gelding is actually "your" horse that someone else had no business hardshipping? That is hardly kosher, since you did sell the horse, and without papers at that.

Personally I would be inclined to say that it would be better to register all your colts and make sure that you sell them for a good price even if you sell them as geldings. That way they are already registered when you sell them; you are giving them their best chance of making it to the show ring without having to be hardshipped in. Yes, I know that many horses don't have their papers kept up but this is still the best chance of having them keep their papers (far better chance than if those horses never had papers in the first place!)

 

[LaVern]

Minimor, Well, I am going to jump up on the stump one more time and I hope I don't sound too sappy.

I was there when we had no Stud Book. I was there when we as a small club all chipped in to send Gary Sauer to Califorina convention maybe twenty years ago, to plead our case. We had no record of even "if" our paper work was being documented. I was there at Convention when Angie begged for a Stud Book. She was patted on the head and as much to say, yes little girl just wait a little longer we are working on it. I was there when Angie finally stood up and demanded a Stud Book. I was at the celebration when we finally got one.

Now some of you may make fun of our Stud Book and say that a lot of what is in it is not correct, but it is all we have.

We are not a breed, We are owned by another breed, who does not want us to be a breed.

That Stud Book is all we have. So if you all think that I am a little protective and sentimental about it, you are right. Okay, it is not perfect, but it is a beginning.

I know that most feel that AMHR is all about promotion of the horses and the showing of our horses so we can brag or sell them and I too love that part. But the documentation of what we have done as breeders--right or wrong -- is what I care about most.

We have come a long way and I do not want to see us go backwards, by letting grades in. That would be like going back 20 years and saying that AMHR horse and our Stud book is nothing. And if our Stud Book is nothing then I as a breeder am also nothing.

 

[Minimor]

Yes, I get that you don't want grades to be let in again, and I don't even disagree with you on that.

I just don't see that 'boycotting' the registry by not registering your geldings or gelding prospects is going to help anything. I'm just saying that if you don't register your geldings, you aren't hurting anyone but yourself, and maybe those geldings, or at least some of them.

If grade geldings do get allowed to hardship into AMHR, your refusal to register your geldings isn't going to change that.

 

[Lisa Strass]

Since this thread has turned into a lot of DNA discussion...

I get really tired of the argument that it is too expensive, and that our horses just aren't worth it. I get tired of hearing it's too expensive for the "little guy". We are talking about $31 a horse. If the horses you are breeding aren't worth that... then maybe you should slow down on the breeding or at least not breed the ones that aren't worth $31! The market is way saturated, and isn't going to get any better anytime soon, but we still have people churning out horses right and left because they can't leave a broodmare open.

I have slowly been DNA'ing my horses over the last couple of years. Now, I'm not saying we should make it mandatory for DNA right now for everyone... I do think we should take it into consideration when implementing the plan for DNA, but to never do it because it is too expensive is a lame excuse IMO.

Ok, flame suit on, fire away.

Oh, and I love the ASPC/AMHR studbook!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Lisa I agree I think AMHR/ASPC should beable to DNA. Yes DNA cost some, but so is everything else when it comes to owning horses. If DNA cost you too much then don't breed as much, or don't breed at all. If you can't afford to DNA then you can't afford to breed, thats JMO.

I

to those who have already DNA'd their herd. Makes me want to jump on the bandwagon too. Altho I only have geldings right now but if I ever decide to breed again I'll do it.

 

[~Lisa~]

I agree Lisa and I also understand it can be a financial burden at first.

off topic a bit but I have always felt the same way about the futurity. A futurity is not meant to nominate every single foal you have it is meant to nominate your best of the best- the gamble on your best horses to end up with a amazing foal. I have never understood why it is so cheap to nomimate our horses for the futurities either. I have heard no that would cost to much - well isnt that the whole point of taking a gamble and betting your horse is going to rise above the rest?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

The problem is Lisa with the Futurities is the payout is too low. Raise the payouts and raise the fees.

 

[disneyhorse]

I don't think adding DNA would make the cost too high. Compared with a lot of big-horse registries, ours is pretty darn cheap to register, show, and nominate for Futurities.

I would be happy to pay DNA fees. DNA can only benefit the breeds.

Andrea

 

[alphahorses]

Since this thread has turned into a lot of DNA discussion...

I get really tired of the argument that it is too expensive, and that our horses just aren't worth it. I get tired of hearing it's too expensive for the "little guy". We are talking about $31 a horse. If the horses you are breeding aren't worth that... then maybe you should slow down on the breeding or at least not breed the ones that aren't worth $31!

That was really uncalled for. I didn't say they were not worth - don't put words in people's mouths. I can afford to DNA my horses - I just see no value in it. But there are a lot of people for whom it would be a hardship, and your statement is a slap to those people who are struggling financially right now.

We all need to think outside of our own socio-economic circles once in a while and think about our these decisions impact everyone - rich or poor - not just ourselves.

 

[Minimor]

There are those who think that it just "isn't worth it" to pay the extra money for DNA and there are those who believe that it is a good thing but simply cannot afford to DNA a bunch of horses, especially now with the economy as it is.

I sure do think there is value in DNA--it takes awhile to get to that point, but eventually when every horse being used for breeding and every foal that is registered is DNA'd (and to me DNA means PQ) then there is definitely value in it. That way there is no cheating, no accidentally putting the wrong parentage on any papers...and I think that is a good thing for any breed. Like I said, it does take a number of years to get to that point and in the meantime there can still be cheating if someone wants to cheat. If horses are going to be DNA'd without being PQ'd at the same time, then there is no value in it--and if a horse doesn't match up to his listed parents when he is PQ'd but a registry just lets him keep the papers without being shown as being PQ'd--I see no value in that.

Once breeding stock is DNA'd and new foals are required to be DNA'd in order to get their papers, if someone says they cannot afford to DNA their foals then I would have to suggest that they should rethink their breeding program. If a horse isn't worth a $50 or $60 registration fee then I don't see the point in raising that horse. For myself, money is tight. If I want to raise a registered foal but cannot afford the necessary fee to register that foal, whether it does or does not include DNA, I'm not going to raise that foal. If I were breeding with the goal of selling my foals, if I couldn't sell my foals for enough to make the $50 or $60 registration fee worthwhile, I wouldn't bother. In today's economy, with the excess of horses we see in all breeds, is it really worthwhile for any breeder to be raising 30 or 40 foals a year?

And I do agree with Lisa about the futurity. From my experience with other breeds, breeders don't usually nominate every foal to the futurity. They choose which mares they feel are likely to produce the best futurity prospect and nominate those mares only. Fees are much higher in those breeds. Higher fees mean higher payouts. I have never seen the reason why Mini breeders feel it is necessary to nominate every foal on the place--for me that just isn't what the futurity is all about. But, in Mini circles I know that opinion isn't a popular one.

 

[LaVern]

I can't afford to do everything I would like to do immediately but I could step by step. My bigger problem is that I am at the age where I physically can't take care of as many babies every year. And I have always said when the day comes that I can not care for them then it is the day to stop.

Well, the old mares are not hard to take care of, but the foals are. They must be handled. And that gets tougher every year for me. So I have decided that the way for me not to have so many is not to breed every mare every year. Or the older ones never again. They can just hang around and live out there lives. They have paid their way.

But here lies the problem. If we all get responsible and decide to perhaps only breed half as many. There goes the HALF of the registries MONEY.

So are we going to lay off half of the staff? Are we going to have the directors pay half of the expenses to go to convention or where ever else they go? Is our office manager going to go only half as much? Are the incentive programs going to be cut in half? Are the ribbons for the area show going to be half as pretty? Is the Congress going to get only half as much as it usually gets?

Will there be only have half as much to spend to heat the office building or half as much to pay our insurance or our lawyer? It goes on and on.

So the dilemma will be how do we keep doing things including things like DNA which will also involve more work for our office staff which will be only half as big, and burrrrrrrrrrrrr, kind of cold if they only get half the heat. Many hard issues for us all. It isn't just the individuals members of AMHR it is the whole registry that we have to consider.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

The way I see it people are breeding too much as it is, it needs to be cut down so yes that means fewer registrations. Registrations are already dropping and they need to find out why. Is it because the breeders aren't registering them? Is it because there are fewer horses bred, I highly doubt that? Are we losing members as well?

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Another thing I was thinking about when it comes to this whole DNAing conversation is whats going on with the Dwarf gene test? Is it getting any closer? Also does anyone know if it would come out like if you were DNA a horse could you at the same time see if its a Dwarf carrier? Or is it something more like when you do a color test? Just something I was wondering. We were hearing about it and thought it was getting closer to finding out to an actual test but I haven't heard much more about it.

 

[OhHorsePee]

IMHO nothing that cost money should be passed when the economy is as bad as it is. As always we need to think of the whole registry members not just a few. If a hardship is placed on farms then the horses/ponies are the ones going to suffer.

As for DNA being passed.... You know there are those that cheat. We all have heard several issues on here multiple times. Some think this will stop the cheating. So lets say a person pulls hair from a hackney and claims it is the hairs of an ASPC/AMHR stallion. The resulting foals will pass a DNA parentage test because the hair that the lab has on file for the sire is from the hackney. That same person that cheats will dump that horse/pony that they have their papers for as grades at your local auction house. The cheaters will cheat no matter what cost you place on all of the members.