Do you think folks are spending less time here now?

[barnbum]

I've read the rules. And followed them. But when you are posting in a thread about your horses and write something like "I can't decide which foals to sell this year, if any, I want to keep them all" and then get a First Official Warning, no heads up, no editing of the post, just "two more strikes and you're out", it can be worrisome. I didn't dare post anything at all after that, for a very long time.

If you were truly one of the "innocent" ones that posted SALES without the intent of sales, we understand how you must feel. But it just got to the point, like Mona said, that way to many people were taking advantage of the Forum. There has been a pinned topic at the top of this Forum since Sept. of 2009 about having to crack down on this! We had to moderate the same for everyone. So if you mentioned SALES you got a warning no matter what your intent.

I can completely relate to Magic's feelings. Is there some kind of tracking device for the word "sales" so any post that mentions it gets a warning? I remember my line was something about NOT having any horses for sale--there were none on my sale page at the time! I PMd a mod--no idea who--about it, but never got a reply. Oh well... doesn't really matter anymore anyway. Shrug.

 

[love_casper]

<----- Yep see right there, youth have a big obvious waving smiley and youth member label. Which was nice when I joined at 13... but I am now 18 and don't know how to change it! Sure would be nice to "grow out of it" lol. I have looked under every tab in my profile settings, can't find it.

Anyway as for me, being busy is most of it. The other thing is that it was always the same circle of people replying to me, and other circles replying to other people, and it was getting a bit clique-ish. When I post something and the 2 or 3 people who knew me would respond, then it would become a personal conversation between friends, and I hated feeling like I was excluding new people. Often the conversation would even switch to weekend plans or personal things between friends... and I never respond when other people's threads get like that. I can post something on FB and the people who care will have a chat over it, the people who don't will ignore it. Occasionally I would come on to post a picture, but because the groups had changed to a whole new set of people, nobody knew me, so nobody responded.

I am excited to get to know the new groups of people though. Can never have too many friends!

 

[Minimor]

I guess I don't see how a post to the effect of "I had intended to sell this mare but then took her off the market and broke her to drive instead, and I'm sure glad that I decided to not sell her after all because she's the best driving horse I've ever had" (or something along that line, that is just one example) can earn anyone a warning? I just don't get that at all.

I can see if it's a blatant "all my foals are for sale" or "I have 3 driving horses for sale" or "I'm selling everything" or worse "I'm selling everything, check out my sales page" but what is wrong with "I sold everything on my sales list except for one mare that I've decided to keep as my personal driving horse"

If the concern is that someone will see that & contact the person asking if they'll sell that remaining horse after all....well, then it's really no different than the post saying "see all my pretty foals" and someone then contacts that person asking which ones are for sale. The foal example is likely to be more of a sales 'hint' than the post about the personal driving horse being retained, or so it seems to me.

 

[wildhorses]

I don't post as often as some, more than others, but have some thoughts concerning this thread and the changes that I would like to see made to Lil Beginnings. I usually visit the site daily. I browse the sales page, even when I'm not really shopping for anything, and usually visit the main forum page daily, and the back porch weekly...the other forums even less frequently.

I think there is no doubt in my mind that the traffic is down on the sales board and forum of Lil Beginnings. 3, 4, or 5 years ago when I would post an add for horses for sale on the US sales board, I would usually get dozens of emails inquiring on my horses for sale each week. There were days I would be at work and check my email and every ten minutes I had new emails inquiring...I would go home from work at night and it would take me several hours each night to respond to email inquiries, making it hard to even get chores done some nights...but that was a good thing! The buyers seemed to be serious potential buyers. In the past 2 years I can honestly say that I have not sold a single horse from my adds on LB. I am not saying this to say that it is no longer an effective advertising tool, as I feel just the opposite. And even better, it's a free tool, with very reasonable rates for advertising which I greatly appreciate and take advantage of when I can. There are several factors involved. #1. We all know the economy sucks and people just aren't buying horses because they don't have the money...I have been in the same boat as everyone else. But #2) I do believe that the traffic is down on the site as a result of several factors, and the people that do visit are just browsers. I try to run a very nice add with very nice photos and can get over 100 hits on the hit counter, and not get a single inquiry from my add. It's disappointing and discouraging, but always hope the next add will be different. What disappoints me so much is that when people do email requesting information, prices, photos, video's, etc. many of us put all of this information together and send it out and not even get an acknowledgement back stating they recieved the information, thank you, not interested, anything. I believe there are many that are lurkers, that are maybe salesboard and forum "junkies" that send the same email everytime that I have advertised...to the point I know their email address by heart, and send all the info, and never hear from them again until the next time that an add is run, re-requesting the same information on the same horse or horses. That is just part of the sales game I guess. But my point is that for me the inquiries are down probably 75% from what they were two or three years ago.

One of the biggest issues I have had with the forum in the past is that there was a certain individual who very cleverly got around the rules by posting every foal born on the farm, with endless photos and an "indirect sales pitch" and sold, many, many, many horses this way. Anyone else tried it and it was deleted, but I watched this individual get by with it year after year. I have never tried that persons method, maybe I should have, but I like to follow the rules. The rules need to apply to all or none. I have wanted to ask for input on my website, show off my foals, but never have for fear of breaking the rules.

Do I think there should be a forum for sales? NO. We have a salesboard, US, Canadian, International...that is enough. If you want to sell horses on this website, do it with the salesboards, not the forum.

Do I think that there is overmoderation of the board, Yes I do. I understand the legal aspects, but it does seem anytime there is a heated debate starting about a topic it is locked or disappears. When I see a particular farm being discussed, or a particular horse being discussed in a negative manner, I think it is wrong, and that topic should be locked immedately. If someone has a bad experience with a seller, the forum isn't the place to hash it out. It's a place for advice. Yes topics will be repeated, and for those who are long time members it gets old, but there are also those who will explain clipping or showing to a newbie whether they have done it 100 times before a not. A few months ago I watched a thread that talked about selling bred mares. I took an hour out of my day to post my thoughts and opinions on this thread, and an hour later the thread had disappeared, never to be seen again. It wasn't a mean thread, was no bashing, arguing, just a discussion which a forum is for. My other pet peave is when a topic is "Moved" say from the main forum to the Back Poarch....it still appears on the main forum and stated "Moved"....whats the point...it's now on both forums taking up space. Too many topics on the forum start out with a simple question or discussion and end up taking a complete 360 turn in a direction that has nothing to do with the original topic, often with bickering between a few individuals, and it seems to be the same few that can't get along quite often...this is very discouraging not only to me from posting, but also to a newbie who might be a potential future client for all of us.

Politics on the Forum....I don't like it. If you wanna bash our president, the senate, Sarah Palin, whoever...go do it somewhere else. Join a political forum somewhere...they have to exist. I can tell you that I have seen the bad come out of some people over politics on this forum, people who I once respected. People that I would have probably considered purchasing horses from, but because of the garbage they posted on this forum about Politics, political issues, etc. it totally discouraged me, I want nothing to do with them. I also removed some of these people from my Facebook page for the same reasons. I don't care if you have your opinion, but when you have to rub it in everyones face day after day it gets old...and it's not why I joined the forum. I think it's a big mistake allowing Political issues back on the forum.

I like the forum the way it is set up at this time. I do believe the Forum is the "Gossip Column" of the miniature horse industry...and I don't mean that in a bad way. There are many lurkers behind the scenes...some of the biggest farms, biggest breeders, biggest trainers, etc. keep a very close eye on this forum, I have been told so by many of them in the past...the same with our registries, directors, etc. If you want to know whats happening in our industry, good or bad, chances are one of the first placed you will read about it is on this forum. I have learned of the death of favorite people and horses on this website, before I ever got a phone call from a friend about it. It's a truly valuable tool to our industry.

Some things I would like changed with the Lil Beginnings Salesboard:

1) I would like a simpler format for running adds. I hate the "time out" feature. You can work on typing out your add for 2 hours, getting your pictures pasted, hit the submit button and it's gone...all that work is gone because you took too long. I have gotten smart and copy/paste my text from microsoft word, but feel it's just unnecessary to have it this way.

2) I would like a "renew add" feature, so that after the 7 days is up your add isn't gone and gone for good. If you want to repost it, you just make any changes or updates you need to make, click the "Renew add" button, and the add is reposted with just a couple clicks of the mouse.

3) Uploading photos...I wish they could be uploaded directly from your hard drive, and not have to have a URL address from photobucket, your website, etc. Again just click a button, select the photo from your computer, and it's uploaded to the add. It would simplify things...and for some reason, any photo that I have put on photobucket in the past 3 years will not upload to the add where the small picture goes next to the title of the add. (anyone else have this issue) I have several photobucket accounts, and it's doing it with all of them....not within the add itself, just in the photo URL at the bottom, and yes, I am doing it correctly...if I pull a photo out from the older accounts it works. Anyways, thats off topic...

Is there competition out there for Lil Beginnings, absolutely. Do I support other websites, yes I do. In this economy I have to use every tool possible to try to sell and promote my horses and my business. However LB is still my favorite and the first one I visit daily. I appreciate having it here and hope it will never be a tool we will have to live without. Just look at what happens when there is a glitch and things go down for a a fay or two, people nearly go crazy...they want their forum and sales board back.

I posted my honest feelings and opinions only to see improvements made to this site. I have spent advertising dollars here too, so feel I have a right to voice my opinion on things. Thank you to Mary Lou and all of the people behind the scenes that make this such a pleasurable asset to our industry. Not everyone could do the job you do to keep this site running smoothly.

 

[WhiteTailsMinis]

woweee this thread gets better and better! I"m following and reading every single post - very interesting thoughts from so many - again I'll say it - LOVE THE PARTICIPATION from everyone - been great to see all the interaction - all the suggestions - and of course the explanations from ML and staff - keep 'em coming.

Gonna take me awhile to post my thoughts on some of the comments as there have been so many - this thread moves fast and I"m trying to keep up - LOL

One thing I have noticed and like - is that even though there are some that don't totally agree - it's still not ugly - it's tasteful and done in an adult manner - clearly indicating the folks can have their preferences, that may not be exactly as someone else's but it doesn't get ugly - I even see some humor in some that are trying to make their point and stand their ground but it's still not ugly or hurtful and hasn't been editted by a mod ....... so that's good and this is a good test that shows we're all entitled to our likes/dislikes and our opinions and don't have to be slammed by someone that doesn't agree totally.

one thing that did grab my attention was the mention of the "youth" identification - I for one never picked up on that - does the member select that themselves or is it automatically attached by the forum based on age at registration of membership? I'll know to check that now. I agree with one poster that age is not an excuse to be rude - if you ask for advice or you post something you know is sure to upset folks, then don't be disrespectful when you don't like the response. I thought when I first joined LB, there was a separate forum called youth forum?

 

[Mona]

Very well thought out and thought provoking post wildhorses. A couple of things in your post I'd like to comment on though.

Where a specific farm is being dissed or a deal has gone sour, we do not allow that and we do lock them or delete them upon discovering them. If things are mentioned and no names are used, then yes, it can stay unless it gets to the point where the OP asks for it to be closed.

I am not sure which thread about the pregnant mares you are referring to, as I wasn't around much for the past few months, but perhaps it was because it was in regards to selling?? We (mods) really cringe when those topics come up, because we know it will just lead to conflict of forum rules. We try to leave it, and edit as needed, but when it starts to get pages and pages deep and we find we are having to edit sales portions out of nearly every post in the thread, we have to resort toshutting it down. That MAY or may NOT have been the problem with the thread you referred to, I don't know for sure, but I do know there have been posts as I have described here that resulted in the thread being locked or deleted.

Then your comment about the moved posts...again, we do a lot of moderating on the forum that readers are totally unaware of, and that is another area. When people post on the wrong forum, we normally just move the topic to the correct forum without any icon or anything saying it was moved. So we might move 20 and you may only see that on one. The reason we sometimes leave it, is if it is a fairly new member of the forums, and they may not be aware of the other fourms, or they may not understand why it disappeared, not knowing to look anywhere else for it, so they post again thinking something happened to the original one. By us selecting the option to leave the notice there, they can follow the link to their post, and to the correct forum, and figure out where it is and maybe why it ended up there. Also, it is not really taking up space on both forums...the subject line remains in view, but nobody can respond to it on that forum to bring it back to the top. Only response from readers on the forum where it was moved to will bump it up. So on the original forum, it will soon go to the bottom of the page and onto the backpages fairly quickly.

As to the people that post only foals for the sake of making sales, I think many of us see that too, but if there are no sales pitches made, there is nothing we can do about it, but I do totally understand what your saying because I see it too.

 

[Mona]

I agree with one poster that age is not an excuse to be rude - if you ask for advice or you post something you know is sure to upset folks, then don't be disrespectful when you don't like the response. I thought when I first joined LB, there was a separate forum called youth forum?

No, age is not an excuse to be rude, but that works BOTH WAYS! I have seen youth being rude to adults, as well as adults being rude to youth, and even getting to the point where I would consider it to be "bullying". What we need to concentrate on, is not age, but courtesy towards each other, regardless of the age. And yes, when questions are asked, hnest answers should be given, but we also should take into consideration other people's feelings...it's one thing to reply honestly, and without sugar coating, but another to be downright rude in the response, and we have all seen that happen time and time again.

 

[SampleMM]

Regarding the posting of foals.........Mona is this okay? I have only had two foals and yes I did post them. I wasn't trying to sell them but was very proud and wanted to share with friends. Is this alright? I guess I'm confused.

 

[Mona]

Regarding the posting of foals.........Mona is this okay? I have only had two foals and yes I did post them. I wasn't trying to sell them but was very proud and wanted to share with friends. Is this alright? I guess I'm confused.

Oh yes...most definately YES! As long as you are posting to announce your new foals (which can be done on the main forum) or later to show them off in cute pics or whatever (on the Photo/Video Forum), and as long as they are not mentioned for sale or anything, then yes, it is definately OK to do! We all love looking at foals!

 

[Jill]

I've posted lots of pictures of ALL my foals. You wanna know how many foals I've tried to sell so far? ...

Personally, I love seeing the foal pictures even from farms who don't post often. Foals are some of the biggest news that happen at any farm and maybe that excitement is motivation to share them with LB? I'd imagine that those who have sold foals as an indirect result of pictures posted on the forum probably have some pretty nice foals at reasonable prices if a person was motivated enough to inquire privately and a sale later followed. Some farms have really nice foals, some people take exceptional photos, and some farms set very reasonable prices. It's still a "free market" system when it comes to horse sales and if someone doesn't have what others want to buy, sales don't happen.

While I don't think posts that are blatantly sales oriented should be allowed, I think there is room for some people to resent the success of those who have no problem selling their foals and then they maybe want to look towards moderator favortism or other things that really aren't a factor. Really, what's the solution? You must post at least _____ times a year before you may share your foal pictures? Blah!

 

[kaykay]

Politics on the Forum....I don't like it. If you wanna bash our president, the senate, Sarah Palin, whoever...go do it somewhere else. Join a political forum somewhere...they have to exist. I can tell you that I have seen the bad come out of some people over politics on this forum, people who I once respected. People that I would have probably considered purchasing horses from, but because of the garbage they posted on this forum about Politics, political issues, etc. it totally discouraged me, I want nothing to do with them. I also removed some of these people from my Facebook page for the same reasons. I don't care if you have your opinion, but when you have to rub it in everyones face day after day it gets old...and it's not why I joined the forum. I think it's a big mistake allowing Political issues back on the forum.

I so totally agree with that! I think it will be a huge step backwards but I totally get that its ML's forum and up to her. I do think though that those political posts where such a turn off to so many and will be once again. I think it changed the whole atmosphere of the board and trickled over to other subjects/main forum.

Mona what I meant when I said over moderated is the whole "sell" thing. That is what I think is overdone. I have never been warned but its because I am so careful. But again for many of us this is what we do so its very hard to have every post never say the word sell. I just know that I have had many friends dinged on it and it really hurt their feelings because 9 times out of 10 they were not trying to sell a horse just talking about it.

 

[Jill]

As many of you know, I am very politically minded and keep up with current events. I am passionate about the subject and have been ever since I was old enough to vote.

Mary Lou has already said she's allowing politics back on the back porch. Mary Lou even instigated a little back and forth with her Sarah Palin comment and it's great to see that now she's a fan (LOL!)

I guess I didn't know that allowing politics on LB was up for debate? Below is my take on what Political and Controversial topics bring to LB.

First and foremost, one great thing is I've never seen a political thread on LB that was not clearly titled so anyone could see it's political and choose to read it or not. I've never opened a thread and been surprised that it was about politics when I thought it was about which horse color you like best

If anyone can recall the actual timeline, it's been a number of years since the political threads were banned. Those threads got more views and more comments than any others I recall on LB and I've been here since the late 90's. The decline in message board participation post-dates the political threads by more than a year so there is no way the politics drove "the people" away

The political and controversial threads will draw people here and while they're here, they will also peak in on miniature horse related threads. I know that I've come here to follow this thread and as a result noticed and remarked on miniature horse threads that I would not have even noticed if not for choosing to check up on this particular thread. It's going to work the same way for many other members, too

So if you don't like political conversations -- either because they don't interest you, you don't like controversy, you don't choose to pay attention to what's going on these days, or any imaginable ETC. -- you will have no trouble avoiding the political discussions but you will enjoy increased viewing and participation on the miniature horse threads that I'm sure do interest you

 

[kaykay]

I guess I didn't know that allowing politics on LB was up for debate? Below is my take on what Political and Controversial topics bring to LB.

I think we are still allowed to give our opinions on it? This is a prime example of what I am talking about LOL. Now Jill you know I shared my awesome chocolate coconut cake recipe with you

, but that sentence comes off very superior and like no other opinions matter but yours. Now I get that is probably not how you intended it, but its how it comes off to ME.

The political and controversial threads will draw people here and while they're here, they will also peak in on miniature horse related threads. I know that I've come here to follow this thread and as a result noticed and remarked on miniature horse threads that I would not have even noticed if not for choosing to check up on this particular thread. It's going to work the same way for many other members, too

Although I dont post as much here either (due to time) I always try to post on advice threads that do not get many comments. If I see a thread that got a lot and the question is answered, then I move on.

The problem with political posts is they will bleed over to the main forum like they did before. So its not a matter of just not clicking on a political thread. Last time many people went after others that didnt agree with them on political threads on the main forum. To me its like an infection that spreads everywhere.

I adore Mary Lou and only want the best for this forum as I have been a long time member too. This forum is really close to my heart as I have seen so much good come from here. I have never seen any good come from a political thread. Just a lot of negativity, hurt feelings and bashing.

 

[Jill]

I think we are still allowed to give our opinions on it? This is a prime example of what I am talking about LOL. Now Jill you know I shared my awesome chocolate coconut cake recipe with you

, but that sentence comes off very superior and like no other opinions matter but yours. Now I get that is probably not how you intended it, but its how it comes off to ME.

Well, see, that's how things become personal. Anyone who got what I was saying would gather THE opinion that matters the most isn't mine, yours or another member's. It's Mary Lou's

But since others were still debating it, I felt like giving my two cents. There's nothing "superior acting" about doing so

 

[tagalong]

If anyone can recall the actual timeline, it's been a number of years since the political threads were banned

Actually - I checked and there were still some at the end of July, 2010... so not as long ago as it seems. And I agree that if one does not like those threads, then they are easy to avoid.

So on with the Sara Palin slams!

ML did not say she was a fan there ^ - she just said that Palin could be discussed freely...

 

[Jill]

Actually - I checked and there were still some at the end of July, 2010... so not as long ago as it seems. And I agree that if one does not like those threads, then they are easy to avoid.

ML did not say she was a fan there ^ - she just said that Palin could be discussed freely...

Political threads on LB were banned LONG before last summer -- undoubtedly, you know this is the case. If you were able to dig some up, then those threads must have fallen through the cracks or experienced what money managers would call "style drift" in that they started off as one thing and evolved into another

Regarding your other remark, maybe my joke about Mary Lou's well known affection for Sarah Palin escaped you... or your current joke escapes me... "

" and I'll throw in a

 

[Jill]

Double post, sorry!

 

[wcr]

Just to add my 2 cents worth on a few suggestions.

I don't think you need another sales section since you have the free sales boards.

A big improvement would be to make it easier to post pics. Off a hard drive like someone suggested. I have printed out several time the 2-3 page instructions on how to post pictures, followed them and have never had a picture come up. Congratulations to those who have figured it out, but I haven't been successful and while not a computer whiz, I am more knowledgeable than many people and give up because it is too time consuming to dink with it. I don't use photobucket or any of the other similar storage sites and am not about to get involved with that stuff just to post pics on the forum.

I have posted before on this thread that as far as the sales issue, I think you are way over moderated. Every time someone gets their hands slapped and they posted innocently it hurts their feelings and it makes them angry. Period. It is human nature and the first thing they do is stop posting. I understand the rules about sales and have always respected them and blatant disregard should be moderated. BUT, just because the words sell or sales comes up in a discussion, doesn't mean people are advertising horses for sale. As in a previous post someone saying they decided not to sell their mare and broke her to drive and are very happy about it. That is not selling a horse on the forum but discussion about a decision not to sell a horse. Read between the lines and you will see that person got her feelings hurt and is still angry about being moderated.

It is my opinion that we are doing a disservice to a lot of people by moderating the sales so heavily. How many times have we seen on here people getting minis for the first time and thrilled to death about it, asking lots of questions and getting good advice? As time goes on they decide they want to show their minis and realize their much loved mini isn't competitive. Not everyone has a trained eye to pick the best conformation and asking for advice to people who are knowledgeable is the same as asking how to feed. Yes, you have allowed discussion on conformation but it gets dicey when they start asking about upgrading their herd. If I say on the forum I have X horse for sale, I deserve to have my hand slapped, my bad. But buying and selling horses is a natural part of the horse industry. The disservice comes when newer people ask the questions about upgrading and not specifically selling X horse, but asking others who have been there, done that about how to go about it and what to look for. They need the guidance and many are qualified and willing to help. This type of thing is a discussion, not sales.

Okay, I'm off my soapbox. I appreciate this forum and overall very happy with it. I am glad this topic has come up because I don't ever remember seeing it in the years I have been here. For the first time Mary Lou really has input from the people here about what we like and don't like. We are also getting input about the things we don't understand about the runnings of a public forum. I even learned the youth have the wavy happy faces, learn something new everyday

 

[tagalong]

Jill - I was just smiling about the Mary Lou being a fan comment.... and that was all. Nothing "escaped" me.

And the only reason I know that some threads were still happening as late as July 2010 is that I rarely clean out my message inbox and decided I better do that yesterday. There were several messages in there from then about that big healthcare thread that was extremely political and was obviously going strong at that time. So going by the dates on those messages, some threads were still around in July 2010. There were also a lot of them throughout March 2009 - just going from old messages - and then of course there were many during the 2008 election campaign.

It just seems like it has been longer than that, I think....

 

[~Lisa~]

Mary Lou.. first let me say thank you for many years of a great forum. I personally do not think you over moderate - I do belive you are very fair in your moderation when it has to be done not something every other forum can say. Lets be honest there is no perfect forum. People go where they feel comfortable be it with thousands of members or with just a few.

You can not please everyone and I can say that after getting to page 8 on this thread well it makes ML's point pretty clear at least to me

I will still come here and check in simply becouse I firmly believe it is the best forum out there and have not yet found one that can even come in as a close second - Political threads well I may read for entertainment value but I was taught politics and religion are things to believe deeply in- and not to discuss or convince others of but hey just my beliefs and yes I must admit if this thread is any indication of what will come.. I sure I will read those threads when I am looking to pass some time and the Jerry Springer show is not on lol