Frustrating fact...

[maestoso]

The line should not be drawn at sexual orientation, that is for sure. I do believe that marriage should be between 2 people. Pologimy is a totally different issue. I also don't necessarily agree (though I am not sure I disagree either...) about the common law marriage. The point is that you have the right to marry. Weather you do or not, is your choice. Gays don't have the choice.

I see common law marriage as almost opening up a can of worms. It essentially allows to people to take advantage of marriage benefits when it suits them, but not suffer the consequences of divorce when they decide to separate. Marriage is a comittment, part of me believes you should make that commitment legally before you receive the benefits.

That said, it's not the same. Domestic partners(boy and girl) are not being denied any rights that they couldnt get if they wanted them. And that is the point, because gays, no matter how committed, are.

You don't want me to marry? Ok... Then I'd like to pay less taxes, since I don't receive all the benefits that other citizens do. How does everyone feel about that? That's what I thought.... It's like the government is having their cake and eating it too.... They get my money but don't give me my right. The idea of taking away rights from women would be obsurd, right? This is EXACTLY the same thing. Any state that doesn't allow gay marriage, is considering gays second class citizens.

 

[Jill]

Another thing to ponder actually is why any marriage should be government sanctioned in the first place... or maybe flip that, why government should be the source of marriage validation. That is a little frightening when you look at it in a certain light.

I am in favor of marriage being an option for all committed couples, like I've always said, but still, it is not at the top of my agenda when it comes to political priorities.

 

[barnbum]

This is not about religion or beliefs...people need to get that out of their heads. This is about equal rights that are owed to all American citizens. Equal rights are not a privilege, they are RIGHTS. We are people, like anyone else is a person. We work, we pay taxes, we must abide by the same rules and be as responsible as any straight citizen yet we do not have the same rights? Hello? Is anyone home up there?

I hate the religious argument. America was founded on Christian morals and a marriage is between a man and a woman blah blah blah. This argument is a mask to hide what is really going on. If it really was about religion, than the right to marriage would be denied to all known atheists, pagans, agnostics, Jews, Jahovas Witnesses, etc etc etc. But it is the gays that are targeted here, when there are plenty of other non Christians who could be targeted.

I disagree on the "blah blah blah." Christians follow the Bible and it's teachings. To do otherwise would be hypocrisy. And--it's 100% true that our country was founded on Christian morals. All that is secure in my head and I'm always home.

 

[maestoso]

Barnbum, I don't argue your points. My problem comes in when religious founding becomes the basis of the argument against gay marriage. As I stated, if this were in fact true, other non-christians would be as equally targeted, and they are not. You or any other Christian cannot reasonably argue that point. When is the last time you heard anyone talking out against marriage among atheists? That's right, you haven't. To make the religious argument a valid one, the government would be targeted anyone but Christians when it comes to marriage rights, since they are not, we are left to believe that there is something else there. And because they cannot isolate that "something else" and manipulate it into an argument that makes sense, we can only assume one of two things. One; they know their argument is ridiculous and unconstitutional and therefor too embarrassed to be honest about it, or two: they really don't know. Someone who argues without knowing why is someone who was convinced to believe something, not someone who has come to their own belief, and personally, I don't want anyone in "charge" who cannot make their own decisions based on their own beliefs that they have developed through education, understanding, and observation.

America cannot claim to be a democracy, and "free" nation when they are offering rights to some citizens and not others, it is as simple as that. No reasonable person could argue this. Murderers, drug addicts, child molesters, women who have lived their lives on welfare, thieves....... all of these people are granted marriage rights. And yet because I am gay I cannot get married. Really? I'm not asking you to justify your religion, that is personal choice. But America does not enforce religion, therefor the rights they choose to offer should not be dependent on them.

I teach. Several of my students come in reeking of cigarette smoke. Some barely see their mothers because they constantly spend the night at their current boyfriends home. I have a student who has 4 siblings by 4 different fathers. Third graders who have been offered alcohol by their straight married parents. But we wouldn't want a responsible gay couple to get married or God forbid, adopt a child.

To deny these simple facts....to deny this logic.... is simply ridiculous. Brainwashed. Again, this is not about religion. If I chose to move to a country who required its citizens to practice a certain religion that did not condone homosexuality, than all of the religious arguments would make perfect sense, and how dare I expect privileges that are against the rules a government has so clearly laid out. But since that is not the case, the arguments are not valid. Right now, when it comes to rights, freedom, equality... American government is filled with hypocrites.

 

[weebiscuit]

I disagree on the "blah blah blah." Christians follow the Bible and it's teachings. To do otherwise would be hypocrisy. And--it's 100% true that our country was founded on Christian morals. All that is secure in my head and I'm always home.

An understanding of US history would show that many of our "founding fathers," such as Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Monroe, Washington, and Adams, et.al., were Deists. Some deists held Jesus in high regard but did not believe he was "divine." Just a man. (Check out "Jefferson's Bible" by Thomas Jefferson). At any rate, yes, there were "biblical" principles at hand when our nation was founded, as most of the Deists felt that the Bible and the teachings of Jesus were worthy considerations, but that doesn't mean these men were "christians" in the sense that they believed Jesus was the son of God. They thought he made good sense, just like people think Buddha made good sense, but no one considers him "god."

What bothers me about all this denial of equal rights for the gay community is that our legal system is punishing an entire group of people for their basic biology. It's as if are laws are made with the idea that one "chooses" to be homosexual and can therefore choose not to be, so why give them the rights heterosexuals have, because they can just "decide" to not be gay and then have their "rights" as the rest of us do. Homosexuality is simply not a "choice," but a fact of life, yet we allow our laws to discriminate against people who were born "differently" than straight people.

I feel that this issue of equal rights for gays is exactly where the civil rights struggle our African Americans went through before passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. The gay community will surely someday get their own "civil rights act" but one would think that in a nation which promises justice and equality for all that right should be a given.

The issue of felons being treated more fairly than our gay community is something that anyone with a lick of common sense should be upset with. But take it down a notch.... even animals are accorded more protection under the law than our gay citizens! Shoot a deer out of season and you are stripped of ALL your firearms, you pay a HUGE fine, and even face possible jail time. Abuse a dog, cat, or other domestic animal and face possible jail time. We are devoting a lot of attention to felons and animals while leaving our gay neighbors helpless and UNprotected under the law.

 

[Jill]

America cannot claim to be a democracy...

She doesn't. The USA is a Republic, not a Democracy.

 

[alongman]

I'm so happy to see all the discussion on this topic. It makes me even more upset today, though, as I just found out that one of my second cousins is pregnant and "looking at getting rid of the kid" as we're searching desperately for a surrogate to have a child or to adopt. It makes me so angry.

To touch on the religion aspect - I was raised in a Christian household and went to church regularly. My recollection was that everyone, despite differences, should be treated equally. After paging through the Bible today, there are several stories about forgiveness, treating neighbors fairly, respect. I'm just curious where these stories have been lost in some of todays' arguements.

If you want to go back to the founding fathers and their beliefs, that might also be an interesting topic as a fair amount of our forefathers "had male companions". Alexander Hamilton had a partner, John Laurens, to whom he wrote many passionate letters describing their relationship. If you care for a good read, look at them. It's sad when 200 years ago, our leading politicians seemed to recognize that there were homosexuals and heterosexuals, yet looked instead at the fact that they were productive members of society.

This is a link describing George Washingtons' actions towards gays - even though not legal.

http://www.bilerico.com/2011/10/george_washington_gay-friendly_father_of_our_count.php

 

[StacyRz]

I am very much for same-sex marriages. I'm originally from Massachusetts and was delighted when my uncle and also a second cousin were both able to marry their long time partners.

It really saddens me that there are so many people that are opposed to it. I just don't understand why. Every straight person I have discussed this topic with always uses the religion card as their reason. My guess is it's an excuse for themselves being uncomfortable with homosexuality, because ALL of them are sinners in one way or another. Hypocrites.

I agree though, that this next generation is much more open minded and even if I don't live to see it, I think the laws in the U.S. are going to change.

 

[StacyRz]

Oh Adam,

I am so sorry. I can't imagine how much that must anger and hurt you. I truly hope that you find a surrogate soon.

Hugs

 

[maestoso]

Jill, I'm sure that you don't see it as the biggest issue because you are not gay. I wonder if things were flipped, and all of a sudden Virginia did not recognize your marriage and you lost all benefits associate with that marriage, if you you would still feel that it is not the biggest issue. If you can make that claim here, I would guess that you are simply being stubborn and lying to yourself... Judging by the way you right your posts here on a daily basis, I'm sure that you would have plenty to say about it, and it would be a big deal to you.

When it comes down to it, legalizing gay marriage means nothing to you one way or the other, so why should you consider it a big deal? To wonder why "we" consider it the most important issue, well, I just don't get how you couldn't understand that. Seems like a no brainer to me. It's equal rights. If the government decided to take away rights for all African Americans, would you think that issue should take a back seat to our current economical issues? It is the same thing, the exact same thing. If you can honestly say that, then youre right, it's a good thing you don't run for president, because a lot of people wouldn't like you.

 

[maestoso]

Adam... why not adopt your cousins baby? I've heard of a lot of people adopting family members because of young pregnancies or unwanted pregnancies...... It would be a much less expensive route than an adoption agency or surrogacy...

 

[Jill]

Jill, I'm sure that you don't see it as the biggest issue because you are not gay.,,,

Matt, I can promise you that I'm really very much up to speed with my opinions, and I am sure my being straight is not why National Security and the Economy are at the top of my list of political concerns. Ponder gay rights a few years down the road if our National Security continues its weakening path...

 

[alongman]

Adam... why not adopt your cousins baby? I've heard of a lot of people adopting family members because of young pregnancies or unwanted pregnancies...... It would be a much less expensive route than an adoption agency or surrogacy...

She is not going to carry the baby to term is my understanding.

 

[alongman]

Matt, I can promise you that I'm really very much up to speed with my opinions, and I am sure my being straight is not why National Security and the Economy are at the top of my list of political concerns. Ponder gay rights a few years down the road if our National Security continues its weakening path...

Our National Security has been threatened since the beginning of the United States - it was under attack during the Civil War (subsequently we seen the slaves freed), and has continued to be under attack including 9/11. I see National Security and equal rights as two separate issues - the reason we are under attack from X country or party is not because (at least solely) that there are homosexuals in America, but because our country has chosen to be involved in OTHER countries National Security. I don't walk into someone elses living room and try to fix their family problems - it's not my place. But, if I add a title like Senator or President to my name, then I guess it is completely within my power to stick my fingers in. I do agree that there are some countries who are devising plans of attack and that is why we are involved, BUT would they really be all that concerned about the US if we had just minded our own business initially? Personally, I believe that we should address problems in our own country for one month, one month, then address problems (or what we see as problems) in other countries. If we focused our energy on feeding our own starving mouths (15.1% of people live in poverty in the US according to the most recent census), if we focused on fixing our own economy, if we focused on supplying ourselves with renewable resources instead of relying solely on nations we are warring against, if we fixed our government.....what would the World be like? Do you think that the Founding Fathers cared about what was happening in Iraq? NO! They wanted to create a country FREE OF ANOTHER......

According to facts I found on the US government website, there are currently 196 known countries in the World (this changes regularly). Of those, the US has military presence in 150! REALLY?! So nearly 3/4 of the countries in the World we feel the need to "control" or at least have a presence in saying "if it doesn't go well, we will take it over." Hmmmmm......

I do agree with Matts' statements that, although people may support gay rights and be straight, it isn't QUITE the same. My parents definitely support me and my lifestyle, but they can NEVER understand what it would feel like to not be able to see their spouse in the hospital, they cannot understand why they wouldn't be allowed to adopt simply based on who they are, they cannot understand what it would feel like to have a politician or ANYONE for that matter tell them that it is WRONG to love the person they love. That is the hurdle that we need to address simultaneously with National Security and other matters.

 

[maestoso]

Jill, I noticed you didn't answer my other questions...

What would your reaction be today, if Virginia changed, and your marriage was no longer valid and you lost all the benefits that went along with that...simply because they didn't want you to have that right. Based on your postings, I am sure your reaction would be, "No big deal, we have bigger things to worry about..."

Really? Doubt it.

 

[shadowpaints]

i am , and always will be for gay marriage. my sister, who lives in oregon with her partener were able to get their

Domestic partenership' . i know that they were happy to get it, and i am happy for them. living here in idaho, i know of several couples that cannot get married.

i believe that love is love, it doesnt matter wether you love the same sex or opposite sex. every single couple in this country should be able to be fully married. i also believe that adoption should be allowed for gay people also, in any state. imagine how many children would be adopted??i dont see why so many are so against it. every one should have the right to marry and divorce.

we love my sisters wife, she is wonderful.

i too love this group, for being able to talk about something that can be so sensitive!!

hugs adam, your baby is out there, i will pray that you will find a way soon!

 

[ohmt]

Hugs to you Adam-i very much hope that you get your baby soon!

Now, this is one of my very favorite responses to an anti-gay comment. It's a gay couple with their two young daughters that talk to the tea party affiliated Michigan Mayor that made the very rude comments on facebook regarding gay marriage in New York. The couple's response is beautiful.

I am on my phone so can't do the fancy link stuff -go to this link and click on the video: http://sayitaintsoalready.com/2011/12/13/lesbian-couple-confronts-troy-michigan-mayor-over-hateful-anti-gay-remarks/

 

[Higgs Boson]

We are a predominately Christian Nation and as Christians then we must obey and respect Gods word. It is Gods word and the Holy Bible that is the basis of America's view of homosexuality. We cannot choose what we want to believe and what we don't to that would be to say that God is wrong how can we as mere humans ever say that God is wrong!

 

God says homosexuality is an abomination. God is never wrong. Therefore all Christians must feel this way.

 

"The Apostle Paul, writing by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, declares that homosexuality "shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (I Corinthians 6:9; 10). Now Paul does not single out the homosexual as a special offender. He includes fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, drunkards, revilers and extortioners. All of the sins mentioned in this passage are condemned by God.

 

Homosexuality is an illicit lust forbidden by God. He said to His people Israel, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). In these passages homosexuality is condemned as a prime example of sin, a sexual perversion. The Christian can neither alter God's viewpoint nor depart from it.

 

In the Bible sodomy is a synonym for homosexuality. God spoke plainly on the matter when He said, "There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel" (Deuteronomy 23:17). The whore and the sodomite are in the same category. A sodomite was not an inhabitant of Sodom nor a descendant of an inhabitant of Sodom, but a man who had given himself to homosexuality, the perverted and unnatural vice for which Sodom was known".

 

[ohmt]

The bible says a lot of things Higgs-if you are going to be so adamant about insisting the homosexuality being an abomination because the bible says so, then I hope you follow EVERYTHING the bible says. I can look up some of the ridiculous things it says and post it for you, but surely since you are so intent on following everything the bible says, then you have it memorized. There are a few regarding women when they are on their periods that are especially humorous-will you please refresh my memory as to what the bible says about that?

Are you against fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners getting married too then? Do you believe all homosexuals should be executed? Because according to what you just posted, you do. Homosexuals getting married is absolutely none of your business. It is between homosexuals and God. Since you are obviously not gay then you can worry about other things-like being judgmental. I wonder if there is anything in the bible about being judgmental and treating everyone with kindness and how you wish to be treated?

Now, I am going to go out and play with my horses. My beautiful horses who love everyone good no matter what color, gender, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, etc. No wonder I would rather spend my time with them than people....

Hugs to all of the LGBT people on this forum. It's what's in your heart and your actions that matter, nothing else.

 

[shadowpaints]

The bible says a lot of things Higgs-if you are going to be so adamant about insisting the homosexuality being an abomination because the bible says so, then I hope you follow EVERYTHING the bible says. I can look up some of the ridiculous things it says and post it for you, but surely since you are so intent on following everything the bible says, then you have it memorized. There are a few regarding women when they are on their periods that are especially humorous-will you please refresh my memory as to what the bible says about that?

Are you against fornicators, idolators, adulterers, thieves, covetous persons, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners getting married too then? Do you believe all homosexuals should be executed? Because according to what you just posted, you do. Homosexuals getting married is absolutely none of your business. It is between homosexuals and God. Since you are obviously not gay then you can worry about other things-like being judgmental. I wonder if there is anything in the bible about being judgmental and treating everyone with kindness and how you wish to be treated?

Now, I am going to go out and play with my horses. My beautiful horses who love everyone good no matter what color, gender, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, etc. No wonder I would rather spend my time with them than people....

Hugs to all of the LGBT people on this forum. It's what's in your heart and your actions that matter, nothing else.

oh man! where is the like button when you need it!!

great response!