Frustrating fact...

[susanne]

So many, when faced with conundrums, ponder "What would Jesus do?"

I have no doubt that Jesus would welcome gays and lesbians with open arms and reject those spewing hatred.

As for God telling us that homosexuality is an abomination, that is man's interpretation of what they think God would want. How could your "loving god" would be so hateful?

My parents taught me what is right and what is wrong and to act according to my conscience -- to think for myself and not according to what someone TELLS me to think. At best, I tend to side with the Deists regarding Jesus' supernatural abilities, but he was the ultimate teacher and example of humanity, love and compassion. It's amazing, however, how many so-called people throughout history call themselves Christians yet ignore what he was truly about.

Adam, I hope you find your baby soon. Matt, I so agree with what you've written here, including, sadly, the idea that those of us who are straight never really understanding. All we can do is try, but too many won't even do that.

As for our priorities regarding human rights vs. national security, if we do not fight for everyone's civil rights, then what good is national security? We would be no better than those against whom we're fighting.

 

[shadowpaints]

So many, when faced with conundrums, ponder "What would Jesus do?"

I have no doubt that Jesus would welcome gays and lesbians with open arms and reject those spewing hatred.

As for God telling us that homosexuality is an abomination, that is man's interpretation of what they think God would want. How could your "loving god" would be so hateful?

My parents taught me what is right and what is wrong and to act according to my conscience -- to think for myself and not according to what someone TELLS me to think. At best, I tend to side with the Deists regarding Jesus' supernatural abilities, but he was the ultimate teacher and example of humanity, love and compassion. It's amazing, however, how many so-called people throughout history call themselves Christians yet ignore what he was truly about.

Adam, I hope you find your baby soon. Matt, I so agree with what you've written here, including, sadly, the idea that those of us who are straight never really understanding. All we can do is try, but too many won't even do that.

:yeah

As for our priorities regarding human rights vs. national security, if we do not fight for everyone's civil rights, then what good is national security? We would be no better than those against whom we're fighting.

 

[StacyRz]

"fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him."

This is in the Bible too...Are you saying you believe this and it is un-Christian to disagree because it is God's word?

Slavery was also not frowned upon...

 

[Jill]

Adam -- remember, I'm one of the ones who is actually for gay marriage rights. It's just not my primary political concern.

Matt -- no I'm not going to spend the time to go through your post and address you point by point. Why would I? You and I haven't ever agreed about anything else before to the best of my recollection.. However, if you're going to argue for gay marriage, why bother to pick a "fight" about it with someone who supports it?

My perspective on it is we will have very few rights, nor an economy to fret about, if our National Security is not strong. Unless we're unexpectedly conquered by Canada, I don't see a bright future for gay rights in this country without a strong National Defense... I mean, come on now → → → How tolerant are our Nation's enemies when it comes to gays? ................................ !!!

 

[tagalong]

Gee Higgs.... first, if you are such a Bible-thumping fellow demanding that we must follow all the rules God gave us in the Old Testament... you are in big trouble - and likely a sinner many times over. You cannot pick and choose which ones you are going to adhere to.

For instance... I will quote someone who said it much better than I could... and add to it a bit..

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? And what about burn bans?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24.

The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 - 45

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.

You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property.

You see - it states that we may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

Exodus 35:2

Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

Lev. 11:10

And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev 21:20

Or a hunchback, or a dwarf, or that has a defect in his eye, or an itching disease, or scabs, or is a eunuch;

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? How about contacts? What about having psoriasis or ezcema? Why is God discriminating against little people amd those with scoliosis or maybe even spina bifida?

Lev, 19:27

Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? Tattoos are also forbidden. I better slay some of my friends for that, as well.

Lev. 11: 6-8

The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you. 7And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves? And bunny rabbits are also an abomination??

Lev. 19:19

You shall keep my statutes. You shall not let your cattle breed with another kind: you shall not sow your field with mixed seed: neither shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you.

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

 

[Flying minis]

Matt, I agree with you that those of us who are straight cannot ever understand what it feels like for same sex couples not to be able to marry. There is though another piece, that many of us DO feel, the frustration and deep sorrow knowing our gay children cannot marry. My 16 year old son dreams of finding the right person and marrying one day. . . my heart aches for him, that he may not be able to do so, because he is gay. THAT is my motivation in getting laws changed to allow same sex marriages. That pain is reserved for those of us with gay children (along with a host of other worries and concerns that parents of straight children NEVER have to even consider).

 

[Ashley]

As a gay person myself I have no desire to ever get married. However, I do wish that everybody gets the option to should they wish.

I also feel for gay men, at least us women can have children. They really dont have much option. Now that I have my daughter I really dont know what I would do with out her.

One thing for sure Adam, someday you will get that baby, you will be a great parent and that child will have LOTS of shoes.

I dont know anybody in this world that has not sinned, an innocent baby yes, but even they eventually sin. Heck my two year old has already sinned.

That said, something from my uncles funeral this summer............."we are born into this world in a white sheet, when we leave this world we are again covered with a white sheet" this is to say our sins are washed way.

 

[vvf]

oh man! where is the like button when you need it!!

great response!

Thinking the same thing, Where is that Like button??

 

[Jill]

As for our priorities regarding human rights vs. national security, if we do not fight for everyone's civil rights, then what good is national security? We would be no better than those against whom we're fighting.

Just noticed this... and I guess I admit I'm thinking OMG. Compare our human rights right here and now with those "enjoyed" by the citizens of our enemy nations. I mean, for real! If our security isn't in place, it's not like the bad guys don't have all kinds of designs on us and human rights could be something you just remember fondly, and very quietly.

 

[alongman]

Just noticed this... and I guess I admit I'm thinking OMG. Compare our human rights right here and now with those "enjoyed" by the citizens of our enemy nations. I mean, for real! If our security isn't in place, it's not like the bad guys don't have all kinds of designs on us and human rights could be something you just remember fondly, and very quietly.

Jill -

I do agree with you and applaud you for being a vocal advocate for gay rights as well as national security. I do appreciate that in the US, as opposed to some of our enemy nations, I am not killed for being openly gay. But, even though the COUNTRY does not choose to kill me, there are people IN our country who have chosen to take it upon themselves to kill those who are gay.....I'm sure I don't have to remind you of the teenagers who were killed along roads or in other public places simply for being who they are. National Security is, and always will be an issue, based on the state of the World today - I do not question this in the least. What I do question, however, is how can we more equally split the concentration of our politicians to cover MANY issues at once? I believe that there are several things that need to be addressed; 1) Orientation and legalization of marriage, 2) Security (both National and that within our own country), 3) Economy.... these can be addressed in any order our politicians feel is necessary.....just do it.

So here's an interesting question - if I join the military, then a military chaplain CAN marry me to my partner if he/she believes in the marriage and the marriage happens on a base? Is this marriage recognized once out of the military? (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/category/gay-marriage/) So, does the government SUPPORT or DENY the point of gay marriage?

 

[alongman]

Gee Higgs.... first, if you are such a Bible-thumping fellow demanding that we must follow all the rules God gave us in the Old Testament... you are in big trouble - and likely a sinner many times over. You cannot pick and choose which ones you are going to adhere to.

For instance... I will quote someone who said it much better than I could... and add to it a bit..

I would like to add my personal favorite:

Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)

So if I go on a spree - who of you will defend me?

According to several websites there are 20-22 "major" religions which account for nearly 10 BILLION people who are NOT Christian......I guess that would eliminate the issue of National Security (based on these facts.....all of our enemy nations would be eliminated), overpopulation, hunger (I mean if there were only 2 Billion of us left, there should be plenty), work load. Does this sound remotely like the Holocaust? Wasn't religion the basis for that "movement" as well?

I also want to plead my case about working on the Sabbath - I sure hope no one gets sick on the Sabbath. Hospital Closed - See you Monday!

 

[StacyRz]

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

 

[alongman]

Exodus 21:17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Maybe I need to start sleeping with my doors locked :/

 

[maestoso]

Jill, for once, please, put your pride away and THINK. The reason you will not answer the simple question, "How would you feel if Virginia all of a sudden eliminated your marriage and the rights associated with it?" is because you don't want to answer it, as it would prove my point instead of your own. You would find it ridiculous, unconstitutional and outrageous, and it would all of a sudden become your number one concern. I'm not picking a fight, I'm trying to answer the question in your first posts, which was something about not understanding why this is "our" most important issue instead of things like national security. You have a secure marriage that you do not have to worry about, so you are blinded by that security. On top of that, you are so prideful that you could not bear to put yourself in another's shoes, or answer a simple question that might force you to reconsider your own statement. You're right, why pick a fight? Useless...

 

[maestoso]

Higgs... I respect anyone who has educated themselves, observed, considered, studied, and come to their own beliefs. So I respect your courage to post what you did and standing up for what you believe. My problem is still this... Your argument that religion is the basis for denying marriage rights to gays would only be justified if all non-christians were denied marriage rights.... And for that matter, any sinner who has not repented should also be denied marriage rights, right? Since this is clearly not the case, you, as christians, are choosing to target only what you feel is appropriate to target, and NOT everything that the bible would target.

And, if it were indeed the case that, America is focusing on it's Christian foundations.... than why do we welcome immigrants who practice a wide variety of religions? Why do we welcome atheist immigrants? Buddhists, Muslims, and a laundry list of others. If it's just about religion, the rest of America's actions are not consistent with the "religious" motivation they have to deny gays, and only gays, marriage rights.

 

[Jill]

Jill, for once, please, put your pride away and THINK. The reason you will not answer the simple question, "How would you feel if Virginia all of a sudden eliminated your marriage and the rights associated with it?" is because you don't want to answer it, as it would prove my point instead of your own. You would find it ridiculous, unconstitutional and outrageous, and it would all of a sudden become your number one concern. I'm not picking a fight, I'm trying to answer the question in your first posts, which was something about not understanding why this is "our" most important issue instead of things like national security. You have a secure marriage that you do not have to worry about, so you are blinded by that security. On top of that, you are so prideful that you could not bear to put yourself in another's shoes, or answer a simple question that might force you to reconsider your own statement. You're right, why pick a fight? Useless...

Matt Drown, I really think you need to step back and ask yourself why you are participating in this discussion because, as it's so often seemed before, you take a controversial subject and instead of focusing on the topic, you decide to focus on me and my motivations. If you ask me, that's really kind of weird.

But, since you seem to really want to know, if Virginia or the USA suddenly eliminated my marriage, would I like it? No. Would I be very upset? Yes. Would it eclipse my concerns about National Security and the Economy? No.

You will just have to be content with my word on it when it comes to how I feel. While I may not be able to see things fully from your shoes, I can just as correctly say the same about you.

Again, in your quest to defend gay marriage, why the heck do you want to bicker with someone who sincerely supports marriage rights for gays? I mean, really, Matt. What the heck? I'm on "your" side of this debate.

 

[Higgs Boson]

Biblical view. God's view. Jesus' view. Christians are keeping gay marriage from passing into law based on what God tells us in the bible.

http://www.catholic.com/documents/gay-marriage

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f018.html

 

[alongman]

Matt Drown, I really think you need to step back and ask yourself why you are participating in this discussion because, as it's so often seemed before, you take a controversial subject and instead of focusing on the topic, you decide to focus on me and my motivations. If you ask me, that's really kind of weird.

But, since you seem to really want to know, if Virginia or the USA suddenly eliminated my marriage, would I like it? No. Would I be very upset? Yes. Would it eclipse my concerns about National Security and the Economy? No.

You will just have to be content with my word on it when it comes to how I feel. While I may not be able to see things fully from your shoes, I can just as correctly say the same about you.

Again, in your quest to defend gay marriage, why the heck do you want to bicker with someone who sincerely supports marriage rights for gays? I mean, really, Matt. What the heck? I'm on "your" side of this debate.

Jill -

I don't think Matt is questioning your support ABOUT gay marriage - I would hope that all gay/lesbians would appreicate the support. I think what he IS saying, though, is: If you were put in a position that your marriage were not legal, would you still feel the same about National Security? You have answered a resounding, yes. I can appreciate that - you are entitled to your opinion. But, I think that other people, when posed with the same question, would not answer that their top priority was National Security. THAT is the point he is trying to make - often peoples' opinions or priorities change when it is THEIR life that is in question.

Matt -

I hope that I summed you up correctly and didn't step on any toes

I value both of your viewpoints and hope that we can keep this discussion going - under (what sounds like years of frustration) we are all three on the same team along with millions of other supporters......now, what about that Sunday off business? If I can't get married by the law of the Bible, then Higgs, I am taking a day off and hope it doesn't interfere with your life.

 

[Jill]

If you were put in a position that your marriage were not legal, would you still feel the same about National Security? You have answered a resounding, yes.

Yes, and thank you for understanding that is sincerely how I feel -- as I have expressed that a few times here. If our Nation is not secure, marriage rights could be the least of our concerns. If my priorities would change if I were in Matt's shoes, it is equally correct that his priorities would change if he were in my shoes.

Past experience, though, does tell me that Matt Drown particularly wants to pick apart my opinions, vs. discuss the topic at hand, and like I said -- I think that's pretty weird. *shrug* ... especially on this historic situation where he and I are on the same side of a debate

 

[barnbum]

Biblical view. God's view. Jesus' view. Christians are keeping gay marriage from passing into law based on what God tells us in the bible.

http://www.catholic.com/documents/gay-marriage

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-f018.html

It is possible to love a person who doesn't share a lifestyle pattern and still feel strongly that marriage is between a man and a woman. I've read here that either folks are accepting of gay marriage OR if not, that they hate homosexuals (some have inferred this). There are others who have homosexual friends and do not let the differences get in the way of love and respect, but still feel marriage between same sex couples should not be legal/accepted. I certainly feel a partner should be allowed full participation in all medical situations... as relates to the story about the partner who was not allowed to be with his dying mate. That's not right or fair. But for marriage--I will stick to my beliefs that it should be between a man and a woman.