Gay marriage - taking a step away from progress

[jyuukai]

Ohh goody, a subject that is near and dear to my heart. In case you haven't noticed through my references to my wife I am, indeed, a card-carrying lesbian.

I must say that I am surprised that the attitudes on this forum regarding this subject are as positive as they are. Some of the political posts I see make me cringe, I find myself often saying "I bet that person is a heterosexist pig who would be glad to see me hang for my 'crimes'" I am happy to say, for the most part, that I have been proven wrong!

Nathan up here is correct on the recognition of gay marriage. I live in NC, a pig southern state if I ever knew one (sorry to other NCers) and clearly I cannot be married here. So let's say I go up to DC, a day trip, and obtain a marriage license there. I am now married in DC, and I am now married in any of the small handful of states that recognize gay marriage. Please note that a state may recognize gay marriage without having to hand out a same-sex license themselves, but really once you recognize it you have seen the light and will legalize it in your state anyhow.

So I come back down to pig-headed NC, good ole' south, but I am not married here. My wife cannot be on my work's insurance, and I cannot be on hers. Our child is mine and mine only in the state, she has no rights to it, if something happens to me she has no say in it, we cannot file taxes together, and only because we are actively trying to be pains in the butt can we declare that we are married on the census.

I am lucky enough to have parents and future in-laws who are very supportive of the love that my wife and I have, and supportive of our plans to start trying to expand our family. Even my father, who is strongly republican and used to be very anti-gay has found the heart to support and love me regardless. And my wife's family? Well her mother was upset at first but really, she loves me, and so she got over it quickly <3 Her father has always accepted me as well.

Anyhow I had more to type but I'm sure it's not really necessary. I would like to just say this : Gays, for the most part, are just normal people. We don't all go out and party and have crazy orgies while wearing tons of laytex or leather or something creepy like that. We aren't all rich and fashionable, not all the lesbians dress like men, and not all the gays are interior designers. I think that if more people could face this and understand it we would all be better off. An LGBT person should not be defined by their sexuality any more than a heterosexual should.

 

[ozymandias]

Over 1500 animal species practice homosexual behavior, including whales, dolphins, lions, monkeys, most herding animals. The only species that discriminates against that behavior? Humans. Sad, isn't it?

Animals have no biblical basis for discrimination. Not all humans discriminate. The Netherlands was the first place to legalize nationwide marriage for gay couples including all the rights marriage comes with...there are more atheist and agnostics there than anywhere else in the world so they're not being taught to discriminate. As a note of interest they also have one of the worlds leading education systems and a very high standard of living and are ranked amongst the worlds most peace loving countries.

 

[ohmt]

I know Ozy

Just to a brat though, agnostic is very different from atheist. I am agnostic, but i still believe in God, just not the book that was written by people, not God, that so many use to put hate in their lives. I do not appreciate when i tell people i'm agnostic and they automatically group me with atheists or call me a "lazy atheist". I know, a whole different subject here! But, since so many seem to not know what agnostic means, thought i'd chime in. I still go to church and my pastor (who knows i'm agnostic) still comes over for dinner.

I think a few socialist countries lead the world in education and standard of living if i'm not mistaken. And here people wanted education completely privatized!

Ok, off my tangent soapbox

 

[lil hoofbeats]

The Netherlands was the first place to legalize nationwide marriage for gay couples including all the rights marriage comes with...there are more atheist and agnostics there than anywhere else in the world so they're not being taught to discriminate. As a note of interest they also have one of the worlds leading education systems and a very high standard of living and are ranked amongst the worlds most peace loving countries.

Amazing things happen when you learn to lay down the hate! We are all on the same ship and we owe each other a huge amount of loyalty.

And aint that what its really all about??? learning to love and and forgetting how to hate!

 

[Jill]

Pro-gay rights Virginian republicans are also alive and well:

The GOP doesn't have the market cornered on being anti-gay, and neither does my beautiful state of Virginia.

Knowing of the news story to which you refer, I am not unhappy to have had liberal judicial nominee blocked. His sexual orientation has nothing to do with why I feel that way.

This does, though, remind me of why I feel this issue and some of the other hot political topics today are SO divisive. They make us feel like we have less in common than we actually do.

 

[ozymandias]

anti-gay Republicans alive and well in Virginia - http://www.cbsnews.c...sMainColumnArea

I highly congratulate them on doing such an outstanding job of protecting the citizens of their state from the evil corruption of a gay jurist. Who knows what could happen next if they let such a thing happen. It's also good to know there are still people out there (mostly republican) who have not evolved or made progress in the last 200 years.

A witch, a witch let's burn her

 

[ozymandias]

I know Ozy

Just to a brat though, agnostic is very different from atheist. I am agnostic, but i still believe in God, just not the book that was written by people, not God, that so many use to put hate in their lives. I do not appreciate when i tell people i'm agnostic and they automatically group me with atheists or call me a "lazy atheist". I know, a whole different subject here! But, since so many seem to not know what agnostic means, thought i'd chime in. I still go to church and my pastor (who knows i'm agnostic) still comes over for dinner.

I think a few socialist countries lead the world in education and standard of living if i'm not mistaken. And here people wanted education completely privatized!

Ok, off my tangent soapbox

Hey, a fence sitter Believe me I know how you feel. I hate it when people call me an Atheist like it's some "religion" I have to be labeled as having. I way prefer the term "scientist" lol or better still "nontheist".

 

[Jill]

Who knows what could happen next if they let such a thing happen. It's also good to know there are still people out there (mostly republican) who have not evolved or made progress in the last 200 years.

Miniwhinny, you didn't mean to be inflammatory, I'm sure. Never leave a pot unstirred.

Jill.. I hope you do not think my link was a personal attack on you.. It trully was not.. Just happen to find these things to share..and it happened to be in Virginia..

Thanks, Mary Lou.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Hey, a fence sitter Believe me I know how you feel. I hate it when people call me an Atheist like it's some "religion" I have to be labeled as having. I way prefer the term "scientist" lol or better still "nontheist".

I am just as skeptical about scientific theory's as i am about religion, except in science its called a hypothesis, not a "revelation" or an "inspiration."

 

[lil hoofbeats]

Susie, i never knew Old Fort NC, was such a hotbed for progressive thinking!!!! I must say...WOW!

Things that make ya go Hmmm.....

 

[Riverrose28]

After reasearching Mr. Romney and his views, I must say, I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last candidate on the face of this Earth! I don't think he has one point of view that I agree with, and most of what he says is nothing, just fluff, no answers. I'm looking forward to the debates this fall!

 

[Danielle_E.]

I sometimes feel Americans go way extreme (on both sides) on political issues.. All U.S. has to do is look NORTH and see how the happy people live in Canada.. that terrible socialist country with free health care for all it's citizens, no hand guns and YES, they accept same sex marriage.. <<< It is a non issue for all of the above..

I am North and when I see the debate and all that is happening with this issue in the U.S. it truly makes me sad that your society is so polarized on this issue. Many of you are aghast when things happen in the middle-east in the name of religion or that governement and religion are so closely tied together in their laws, etc. On this issue, gay marriage, the U.S. is very judgemental and as far as I am concerned causing hatred or non-tolerance of a group of people in your society. I feel for the gay and lesbian individuals who are in a relationship and wish to show their love for their partner and wish to get married and have the same basic rights as others in heterosexual marriages. Why are people so vehement against? Most of them come up with the explanation that it is stated in the bible, blah blah blah. To them I say you have been brain washed by priest, pastors, etc. who are spewing this hate and like sheep you follow blindly and don't question or read their bible yourself. I know what the bible tells us, it tells us to treat others as we wish to be treated, it tells us he who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone, you will not judge others... and on and on it goes. Gee, I never knew so many were of the opinion of themselves that they are perfect and without fault. Where has the humility gone? Where has the compassion gone? We are all concerned about bullying in schools and we try and teach our children but look at us adults. It seems bullying is more prevalent in adults, what kind of example are we teaching our children about tolerance and love and to respect individuality?. I just don't understand the mentality, are people afraid and if so afraid of what??? These individuals should have all the rights and freedoms that everyone else has, period. There is absolutely no reason to deny them this, none. JMHO

 

[ozymandias]

I am just as skeptical about scientific theory's as i am about religion, except in science its called a hypothesis, not a "revelation" or an "inspiration."

Although if you know anything about what it takes to form a scientific theory which I'm sure you do then you know just how much work, testing, proving, more testing and more proving, experiments etc that goes into researching a scientific "theory". As opposed to religion which by it's sheer nature requires nothing more than "faith". Faith that indeed the world is only 7000 years old, faith that there was a giant world wide flood with waters higher than Mt. Everest, faith that although it would be scientifically impossible to fit two of every species into a small wooden boat (let alone get them there from the far reaching corners of the planet) - it never the less happened etc, etc. These things require no scientific testing because there is no scientific evidence to say any of them are real. Science and Faith don't mix well

Also the word "theory" in science has a very different meaning than it does in everyday usage.

"Everything becomes clear if you assign their proper meanings to words like "theory", "law" etc. in a scientific context. In particular, "theory" is not an insult as in the silly saying "it's just a theory". A theory is simply the most elaborate form of consistent scientific knowledge not yet disproven by experiment".

And of course and back to the original topic of this thread, it takes faith to believe that indeed homosexuals are "an abomination and should be put to death". As science has established that homosexuality is indeed something that occurs in fetal development and not something people can "control" by will. I'll opt for the scientific explanation and continue to live by my "live and let live" outlook.

 

[ozymandias]

I am North and when I see the debate and all that is happening with this issue in the U.S. it truly makes me sad that your society is so polarized on this issue. Many of you are aghast when things happen in the middle-east in the name of religion or that governement and religion are so closely tied together in their laws, etc. On this issue, gay marriage, the U.S. is very judgemental and as far as I am concerned causing hatred or non-tolerance of a group of people in your society. I feel for the gay and lesbian individuals who are in a relationship and wish to show their love for their partner and wish to get married and have the same basic rights as others in heterosexual marriages. Why are people so vehement against? Most of them come up with the explanation that it is stated in the bible, blah blah blah. To them I say you have been brain washed by priest, pastors, etc. who are spewing this hate and like sheep you follow blindly and don't question or read their bible yourself. I know what the bible tells us, it tells us to treat others as we wish to be treated, it tells us he who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone, you will not judge others... and on and on it goes. Gee, I never knew so many were of the opinion of themselves that they are perfect and without fault. Where has the humility gone? Where has the compassion gone? We are all concerned about bullying in schools and we try and teach our children but look at us adults. It seems bullying is more prevalent in adults, what kind of example are we teaching our children about tolerance and love and to respect individuality?. I just don't understand the mentality, are people afraid and if so afraid of what??? These individuals should have all the rights and freedoms that everyone else has, period. There is absolutely no reason to deny them this, none. JMHO

Bravo

What a well written post

 

[ozymandias]

After reasearching Mr. Romney and his views, I must say, I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last candidate on the face of this Earth! I don't think he has one point of view that I agree with, and most of what he says is nothing, just fluff, no answers. I'm looking forward to the debates this fall!

100% agree with you.

 

[JennyB]

Been pretty busy today and haven't had the TV or radio on. Can't tell you how mad that makes me. I've been a republican my entire voting life and I will NOT be casting a vote for this man, in fact I'm seriously thinking about voting Obama to help make sure Romney doesn't get in. If the President of the United States has no regard for the principles we were founded on what hope do we have. I don't expect this man to keep his cult/religion out of his politics for one second. Sure wish RP stood a fraction of a chance. He may be a religious man but at least he knows when to separate it. Next thing we'll find is he will want science books banned from public schools for printing heresy.

" If the President of the United States has no regard for the principles we were founded on what hope do we have"...HELLO!!!!...You honestly believe that Obama has the principles we founded this country in????????....When he was born in Kenya. Plus all the other crap he has done in his term as President, and I voted for the "B.........."! .....I live deep in Morman country. I am not a Morman and don't believe their religion, but they are very good people and most of them would give you the shirts off their backs to help you out. There are good and bad people in every religion and even though I don't like the choice I have this year...I will NOT vote for Obama! .....The government is so terrible corrupt now, that whomever because our next President it doesn't matter the whole country is down the toilet! ..........As for Gay marriage, I am not for it as the Bible will tell you, but we need to leave people to their own business. I have many good friends who are Mormans and Gay people, worked for both and have enjoyed every moment of our friendships. If asked why I don't believe in Mormanism or Gay people, I will tell them. If they don't ask, then so be it. ..JMO

 

[susanne]

.

Critical mass is slowly shifting. Change may be slow in coming, but it IS coming, whether conservative churches, the reactionary right, or prejudiced individuals like it or not. Sadly, it does not move swiftly enough for those who face prejudice today.

I believe MANY are afraid that, if they support gay and lesbian rights, their own sexuality will be questioned. I pity anyone who is that insecure.

Those who quote the bible when opposing gay rights need to remember the golden rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Imagine if YOUR love were denied, if YOU were despised for the way you were born, and if YOU were made to feel like a pariah in your community and in your own family... I cannot imagine if Keith and I were not allowed to be married. We were scoffed at by my anti-marriage sister, but I just told her to bite me and we did what we wanted. What if we didn't have that right?

As for denying marriage because churches don't approve: various sects and denominations have their own rules for couples to be married in their churches. They have the right to define, say, what constitutes a Catholic marriage. But all that means is that a non-conforming couple cannot be married IN THAT CHURCH. That does not stop a couple from being married by a justice of the peace OR in another church, or by a minister in a non-church setting.

If the Catholic Church (or any other church) does not approve of gay marriage, they don't have to allow it in their church -- that DOES NOT mean they have the right to forbid it in other churches or in a non-religious ceremony.

 

[susanne]

Oh, yes, the old crap about Obama being born in Kenya...

Do you honestly believe that, if it were true, the GOP would not have brought it to light, either during the last election or more recently? If it were true, the Republican powers that be would have to be stupid or equally corrupt.

But this is a discussion about gay marriage, and we digress.

 

[Jill]

Obama Kenyan? Maybe not, but maybe. Breitbart and Sheriff Joe have made me more interested over the past year or so admittedly sometimes in a day dreamy fashion. But, I don't know. However, when it comes to being a socialist, anti-American, job and business killing, narcissistic, racist? Yeah, I think Obama's got those qualities down pat.

Can't vote for Romney? Then don't, but know that you are then by action or inaction endorsing the alternative, and this time around, that alternative is four more years of Obama.

 

[susanne]

My late sister was a died-in-the-wool socialist, and trust me, Jill, you don't have a clue what socialism is.

On the humorous side, Margot used to introduce Keith and me as "her sister and brother-in-law, the yuppies." To which I replied, "You have to understand that my sister's definition of a yuppie is anyone whose job isn't dependent upon a yearly grant proposal."

Whatever her political beliefs, she was a brilliant, kind, yet uncompromising woman who would have defended your right to your opinions to the death. (BTW, she would have considered Obama a middle-of-the-road sellout, LOL)