Gay marriage - taking a step away from progress

[JennyB]

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I don't think it will be closed. Sure it may be a controversial topic but seems people are just posting their thoughts without getting personal

. I don't understand, perhaps I'm just so naive and think everyone should love and embrace everyone else, how you can sit back all smug and righteous in being "saved" when you're judging gay people because of your religion. You do know that in the bible god not only killed but bragged about killing over - ALMOST 2 MILLION 500 thousand. How many did the make believe satan kill....wait for it...TEN, yes 10 just 10 oh and god dared him to do it lol. Not sure who'd I'd be more worried about lol.

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<p>I think you will find you answers below if you choose to let your mind open or not,  if you choose to stay closed.</p>

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<div>Why would God order the destruction of men, women, and children?</div>

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<div>"Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 ‘Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” (1 Samuel 15:2-3).</div>

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<div>The Amalekites, who were descendents of Esau, had been longtime enemies of Israel. They fought against Israel at Rephidim (Exodus 17:8). Apparently, they "entertained a deep-seated grudge against them, especially as the rapid prosperity and marvelous experience of Israel showed that the blessing contained in the birthright [Jacob and Esau] was taking effect."1 They were a constant threat to Israel. Therefore, God said to Moses in Exodus 17:14 “Write this in a book as a memorial, and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”</div>

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<div>God lawfully has the right to execute judgment upon anyone. The Bible says that all people have sinned against God and are under his righteous judgment. Therefore, their execution is not an arbitrary killing nor is it murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. For example, we can lawfully take a life in defense of our selves, our families, our nations, etc.</div>

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<div>When God authorizes the nation of Israel to wipe out a people, it is a lawful execution due to their rebellion and sin against God. Furthermore, such an extermination can be seen to be merciful by delivering the young into the hands of the Lord and possibly saving their souls by not giving them time to become "utterly sinful".2 Additionally, further generations that would have arisen from the perverse culture, are likewise prevented from coming into existence and spreading their sin.</div>

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<div>Finally, one of the reasons that the Lord is so strong in the Old Testament and orders the killing of people is to ensure that the future messianic line would remain intact. The enemy, Satan, began his attempt to destroy God's people in the Garden of Eden, by also trying to corrupt the world (which led to Noah's Flood), by trying to destroy Israel with attacking armies, and by encouraging Israel to fall into idolatry by exposure to other cultures as well as intermarrying women from those cultures. The result of both the idolatry and the interbreeding would have been the failure of the prophecies that foretold of the coming Messiah which specified which family line the Messiah would come through. The Messiah, Jesus, would be the one who would die for the sins of the world and without that death there would be no atonement. Without the atonement, all people would be lost. So, God was ensuring the arrival of the Messiah via the destruction of the ungodly.</div>

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<div>If Job was blameless, why did God allow Satan to afflict him?</div>

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<div>Job 1:1 and Job 1:12</div>

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<div>(Job 1:1) - "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God, and turning away from evil."</div>

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<div>(Job 1:12) - "Then the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him."</div>

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<div>When the Bible says that Job was blameless, it does not mean that he was absolutely sinless.  It means that he was a God-fearing man who sought to do what was right before the Lord.  Job's awareness of his own sins is acknowledged by the fact that he sacrificed animals to the Lord as atonement for his sins in chapter 1.</div>

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<div>As the story goes, the "sons of God", angels, presented themselves before God.  Satan was there and a conversation ensued about Job's goodness.  Satan challenges God by stating that Job will denounce God if afflicted.  God gives permission to Satan to afflict Job.  Of course, Job doesn't denounce God.  So, the question is why would God allow Satan to do this?</div>

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<div>The reason is so that God may be vindicated at His word and so that we might understand that trials and tribulations will come to those who are godly.  In the former, we see the righteousness of God. After all, none are righteous before God (Rom. 3:10-12).  In the latter we see the perfection of Job's faith (James 1:2-4)</div>

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<div>Jenny</div>

 

[JennyB]

Opps not sure what happened here, but I am guessing your smart enough to read between the html codes...

Jenny

 

[Ashley]

And I really do think Jill is open to gay people.

 

[JennyB]

Jenny,

Thank you so much for your previous postings. As someone who believes in their heart as you do I just wanted to say you did the right thing before this thread gets closed (and no doubt it will). I know that you have "the peace that passes all understanding." Rather than go through words of offensive and defensive maneuvers here you have chosen to walk in the Spirit and because you do the fruits of the Spirit are evident in you.

Galations 5:22-26 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

The truth is before actually becoming a Christian I used to actually consider myself a Christian because I went to church, was baptized as child, and all the usual things that would make me not fit the bill of "a bad person." But the fact of the matter was that I was no more of a Christian than people who are openly bashing the Bible (and by the way if YOU want to see what a good orator The Father of ALL Lies is you can see it at evilbible.com) .

I am so glad God did not give up on me. Satan had me pretty convinced that I was not salvageable. He lied.

He is a good liar but not good enough to convince me that I should support gay life style. I no longer will fall into the trap of believing his lies about adultery and fornication either. I am not giving up my future mansion in Paradise for that. Well, gotta go read some Bible. I tend to get a bit rusty when I let me Bible get dusty. Love ya'll all!

Thanks Vickie,

It is refreshing to hear someone who has something positive to say about God and the Bible and I am so very happy that you found your way. I also felt the same way growing up, but my husband, Mel and his first wife Dorothy( she passed from a sudden heart attack and we still all miss her very, very much) helped me along to take the right path to salvation. Both Mel & Dorothy were born and raised as Morman's and their children. It wasn't until their daughter took a different path, that they started to look into what was truly right and what was wrong. The whole family, except their son and his family have been saved. They still choose to practice Mormanism.. We don't tell them what to do and don't judge them. We just pray that they will see the light one day soon. We have faith that they will

Blessings,

Jenny

 

[ozymandias]

Whoa Jenny, that was a long one and to be honest I didn't read any of it because of all the codes you left in

Got a bit confusing lol.

I think to save MB space we'd better agree to disagree lol. What this thread is about is people basing their prejudice towards gays on their religion. It's happening and it's taking away their rights on a daily basis and it's not just their marriage rights it's a whole way of treating them that comes from it. If you can live with yourself and consciously cause pain to another because of your god's book then I guess you must do it

 

[JennyB]

Whoa Jenny, that was a long one and to be honest I didn't read any of it because of all the codes you left in

Got a bit confusing lol.

I think to save MB space we'd better agree to disagree lol. What this thread is about is people basing their prejudice towards gays on their religion. It's happening and it's taking away their rights on a daily basis and it's not just their marriage rights it's a whole way of treating them that comes from it. If you can live with yourself and consciously cause pain to another because of your god's book then I guess you must do it

Sorry about the added html codes which makes it hard to read, but those who wish to read it will read around the html.

Yes this discussion was started about Gay's and their rights. Unfortunately God and the Bible is where the trouble started. I have nothing at all against two people getting married no matter the sex(but God Does!) and you keep twisting around that I do.. I do not believe that the Gay lifestyle is right because of what God has said about this. I am not going to vote for or against Gay marriage or rights. I feel that it is each person's right to decide what they want to do with their life and who they want to spend it with. Again I have told you that I have many Gay friends. I have know and have worked for many Gay people and I found them to be just as wonderful, genuine and loving as any straight people I know. Sometimes better!

I feel that even though the Bible say's that it is wrong, the fact is, is that there are hundreds upon thousands+ of Gay couples in this world. We all have right's in this world and they should too. This is a very sticky subject as is abortion, religion, sex, etc. and it's hard to tap lightly on the subject without hurting feelings. Everyone has their "Right's" to live and voice their opinions, but in the world we now live in, I feel that people must be flexible if we are to live together in Peace...do you see that happening?..I don't!... and because we all have our opinions it constantly getting rattled around into sometimes horrible and deadly things and unfortunately I believe it always will. In the end God will decide. People are very passionate about their thoughts and feelings and that "free will" that God has given us, with the consent help of Satan keeps us fighting with each other from every topic from A to Z.....

This is where I stand on the subject of Gay partners/marriages/rights and I respect Gay people very much...end of story!

Blessings,

Jenny

 

[Ashley]

Jenny what you are missing is its not a choice. Every gay person will tell you how much they tried to change it, but it doesnt work.

We are made in his image, if it was so wrong then why would he make us this way?

I beleive in God, read the bible and go to church, so its not that I am anti anything.

 

[JennyB]

Jenny what you are missing is its not a choice. Every gay person will tell you how much they tried to change it, but it doesnt work.

We are made in his image, if it was so wrong then why would he make us this way?

I beleive in God, read the bible and go to church, so its not that I am anti anything.

Ashley I am not missing the point and I understand what you mean. I am not sure everyone feels that way, but maybe so. Yes God made you and all of us...why this happens I am not sure. I am sure we will all know everything when we are in heaven again. What I meant when I said, "it was your choice", was the right's to feel, do and say what you feel is best in your life, in the world that we live in today. You did not choice to be different than me or your neighbor. We don't know why things happen they just do. I am sorry that you have had struggles in your life and I can't imagine how tough it is to be in a minority and have so many people hating your way of life. Only God knows what is going on and I don't have an easy answer for you. I would just keep on going to church, reading the bible and pray everyday to God for strength and ask for forgiveness. I wish I did have all the answers, but I don't. Just try to be as happy as you can and be the best person "you" can be. (((HUGS)))

Blessings,

Jenny

 

[LindaL]

I just found this thread this morning and have just read every single post (some of the religious and political "blah, blah, blah" I skimmed over...just because it's all be read before...same arguments, same political BS)...

As almost everyone on here knows I am an openly gay woman. Came out at age 35 after being married to a man for 12 years, having 2 beautiful children and growing up in a STRICT Roman Catholic family where we went to church EVERY Catholic "holiday" (even when we went camping, my parents found a church nearby to take us on Sunday morning). So, I have "been there, done that" on many "straight/religious" levels.

I knew from the time I was a small child that I was "different", but growing up in the household I did, all my thoughts were pushed back and I did what I was "supposed" to do. My attraction for women never changed tho and I finally knew that *I* had to be happy in life by making a VERY difficult decision.

My wife and I lived in Oregon where "domestic partnerships" are recognized. MOST rights automatically given to straight married couples were also given to us, but not all. We now live in Florida where our "piece of paper" means nothing (except luckily the hospital where Deb works does allow "domestic partnerships" for insurance). Our rights that we "signed" for in Oregon do not matter...unless we document it legally by paying someone to write up those documents...why?? Straight married couples do not have to pay anyone to give them the right to see their spouse on their death bed or have legal right to say where they go after death. If I were to die, my parents (NOT Deb) would have legal say in what happens to my body...No matter how "accepted" Deb is, I can not guarantee her that my parents would not "deprive" her as my WIFE her say in my "wishes"....unless I pay to have documents written up.

The whole issue of gay marriage is really a "formality" to how the general public would accept gays/lesbians in public. What I mean is...if gay marriage would legalized in all 50 states, it would be more acceptable to ACT like a couple in public...holding hands, showing affection (NOT talking about groping, making out, etc...), but just acting like most couple act naturally in public. When Deb and I are out in public (unless it is at a "gay event"), we tend to not hold hands or show affection. We mostly act like "friends". It bothers me that I can be in line at a grocery store and see a straight couple affectionately caress their spouse's arm/shoulder/back in a loving way, but people would stare/whisper if Deb and I did it.

I recently read an article about a preacher who would BULLY his own son both physically and verbally for showing any effeminate signs of being "gay". Besides the fact that he is a religious man (and I use both of those terms very loosely), he is teaching both intolerance and acceptance of bullying to his own child. 10 years from now, this child will either commit suicide or become a bully himself for how his father raised him. WHY does either have to happen?? It doesn't if only people would leave religion and politics out of the equation and TEACH acceptance for ALL humans. Why is that so difficult for people to grasp??

The arguments about children being raised in a gay/lesbian household do not stand up either...While my kids did have a father and a mother, a social worker who did home studies on my lesbian household and my ex-husband's straight (he had a new wife) household...said MY household was more STABLE than his....hmmm.... (I know this issue has not been brought up here yet. but I've heard it before). Neither of my kids grew up "gay" because I was (that argument is just silliness)...not that it would matter if they did or not...and both are well-adjusted and accepting humans.

I did not choose to be a lesbian just like people do not choose their race. I love a woman, because my brain is set up that way. God created me...just the way I am. By bringing the religion factor into this makes me sad. I consider myself Christian (not Catholic)...I believe in God, I believe in Jesus...I believe the Bible was written by men whose views were the "norm" back when it was written...the way the world was back then. It is a book "based on facts", but also largely based on the opinions of those who wrote it.

But, I'm not going to argue about religion or politics...The last thing I will say is...I am a HUMAN BEING first...and should be treated as such...gay, straight, bi, transgender should all be a NON-ISSUE...

 

[vickie gee]

Respectfully, I disagree.

First of all, marriage licenses are provided through the State government. So, although President Obama's position is interesting, it really carries no more weight than the Mayor of Detroit saying we should invade Iran. It is news worthy, but nothing has changed.

Leave people alone !!! Gee all they want to do is have the same basic rights that we male/female married couples enjoy.

Gays and lesbians have the same rights as heterosexuals, what they are asking for is a 'new' right. The right to marry anyone they want. If I was a polygamist and wanted to marry 3 wives that I loved and all loved me, am I asking for 'the same basic right' as all other people or am I asking for a 'new' right?

Love is love! You can't tell me a man/woman relationship is any different than a same sex relationship when it comes to love.

I agree, but love isn't marriage. Marriage is more than just love. Should marriage be allowed between an adult and a child simply because they love? Should marriage be allowed between siblings because they love?

This is as basic and backwards as not letting black people ride the same bus, or give up their seat to a white person in the American 50's.

In those cases blacks were denied the exact same right reserved for whites. I do not agree that the same argument can be extrapolated here.

I can't imagine not being allowed to get healthcare or visit a loved one in hospital because people wouldn't allow it!

As someone who pays for 100% of their own healthcare, I never understand why people think someone else paying for their healthcare should be a 'right'?

Anyway, except for government jobs, you are free to find an employer who provides healthcare for your same sex partner. As for the Hospital, they are a private institution and can allow what ever they want. It is my understanding that if paperwork is done a Hospital will allow same sex visitation.

Dr Taylor

I read Dr Taylor's post. I read it again. Sometimes things tend to sink in slow with me. I read it again. I did the same thing with the original post which brought up Obama's recent endorsement. Ok, Dr Taylor made some valid points. Each point had a question in it. I asked myself the answers to his questions. The good doc was not even giving up his personal opinions of gay relationships/religious beliefs. He simply put some food for thought out there.

As far as Obama's announcement about that he had evolved into this personal opinion.... it was strategic. Typically, any politician plans their strategies. I think we could all agree that all of them do. Some of the black people at work have discussed this announcement with me; as they feel let down. These are people who voted for Obama and likely would have voted for Cain this time. You see with them it was all about color. They know it and they know I know it. I am pretty much blunt with them and they are with me and at the end of the day we are still friends and co-workers. I saw disappointment on their faces when I explained to them it was all about receiving campaign $$$$. They saw the same in my face after they told me they were just not going to vote.

Everybody has to live their own life and make their own choices daily. I may not agree with yours and you may not agree with mine. That does not make me uncompassionate and it does not mean you have to share my view nor I yours.

 

[Ashley]

Jenny you missed my point. Being gay isn't any more of a choice then being straight. In your mind its a choice to act on it, so then it's ok to be gay but I shouldn't act cause on it and be miserable instead

 

[ohmt]

I find it sad that all i heard when Obama made his announcement wasn't about how it was a step forward, but how it was just strategy, turning a wonderful thing into a negative (sad). First, he already has the support of the majority of LGBT citizens so it gained him little there. Second, his announcement probably lost him a LOT of votes, which is why i am fairly certain he did not say anything earlier. It makes much more sense that it was strategy BEFORE, not after. It doesn't matter anyway, it is congress we should be more concerned about, but i applaud Obama for taking that step that will hopefully get others to follow.

 

[Jill]

And I really do think Jill is open to gay people.

I am. I've never felt gay people choose to be gay, not any more than I decided to be straight. You just ARE the way you ARE, in my opinion.

 

[ozymandias]

It is a book "based on facts".

And sadly one of these facts is the fact that the god of this bible is of the opinion that homoxexuality is an abomination. That's not a gray area statement. "Abomination" is a pretty clean stance and those people like Jenny and VIckie who try to be faithful to it don't have a lot of wiggle room. That's why the gay marriage issue is overwhelmingly coming up against the religious right "no" vote.

I have to make one small comment on the book based on facts statement as this message board so gracefully allows both us to comment on comments

. As someone driven by an unquenchable thirst for scientific truths...I got intellectually lost in the first chapter when the light of day was created four days before the sun was created and flowers, trees and plants were created a day before the sun was created. Just knowing how cold a planet that's not orbiting a sun can be I wonder how plants survived .

The reason is simple. At the time the bible was written the poorly educated people who wrote it didn't know that the light of day and warmth actually originated from the sun, even though it was known that the sun "ruled" the day. That's why they thought it was possible to have life on a freezing planet in space before the sun was made. Because the people writing it didn't know any better. I'm a little confused how an omnipotent being wouldn't know the sun was needed ahead of time though. Ummmmm...makes you think huh?

 

[vickie gee]

ohmt, you find it sad...because you support gay unions and therefore feel it is a step forward. I understand your feelings since you support gay unions. Clearly we disagree on opinions of whether we support that. But since I like you and often take notice of your posts on horse matters and feel that we should try hard to listen to what somebody is saying I am putting myself in your shoes while I decipher what you have just said. I wish we had a symbol for brain trying to process what eyes have read.

(sincerely trying)

I believe it is a strategy because of the $$$ pouring in from Hollywood, rich people with gay lifestyles, and/or support of it. His announcement lost him some votes and it gained him a lot of money to campaign with therefore will ultimately gain him votes. You say you are fairly sure. If he were playing chess no doubt he would like to keep his opponent unsure. Consider this, the people getting cradle to grave $ from taxpayers were not going to send him any $ anyway and I can tell you from personal experience that not even 20% of the people in my office will vote let alone send a check to support any candidate. Some of them cannot even tell me what precinct they live in or who is running for the local offices. I don't know what Obama really supports in this matter because to be perfectly honest I do not believe anything he says. Politicians have strategies to support their agenda. If I chose to throw in adjectives and nouns concerning Obama for sure stupid would not be one of them.

 

[vickie gee]

Don't laugh at me please but what is LGBT? I would guess lesbian, gay, and those last two I am clueless on.

 

[KanoasDestiny]

I believe the 'B' stands for Bisexual, and the 'T' is for Transgender.

 

[vickie gee]

I believe the 'B' stands for Bisexual, and the 'T' is for Transgender.

Ok, thanks. I am pretty sure I know some B's and can't say I know any T's.

 

[vickie gee]

And sadly one of these facts is the fact that the god of this bible is of the opinion that homoxexuality is an abomination. That's not a gray area statement. "Abomination" is a pretty clean stance and those people like Jenny and VIckie who try to be faithful to it don't have a lot of wiggle room. That's why the gay marriage issue is overwhelmingly coming up against the religious right "no" vote.

I have to make one small comment on the book based on facts statement as this message board so gracefully allows both us to comment on comments

. As someone driven by an unquenchable thirst for scientific truths...I got intellectually lost in the first chapter when the light of day was created four days before the sun was created and flowers, trees and plants were created a day before the sun was created. Just knowing how cold a planet that's not orbiting a sun can be I wonder how plants survived .

The reason is simple. At the time the bible was written the poorly educated people who wrote it didn't know that the light of day and warmth actually originated from the sun, even though it was known that the sun "ruled" the day. That's why they thought it was possible to have life on a freezing planet in space before the sun was made. Because the people writing it didn't know any better. I'm a little confused how an omnipotent being wouldn't know the sun was needed ahead of time though. Ummmmm...makes you think huh?

For sure lots of things make me think. I think it is difficult to understand how Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven without dying and then I realize that it does not matter since God did it who I am I to question how He did it. I know the Bible with its 66 books has several authors. Now which ones were poorly educated I do not know. I do know that wisdom and knowledge are not interchangeable. Psalms is one of my favorites.

Please do not be sad for me.

 

[Jill]

Edit to say -- Nevermind, the question's already been answered